Re: Brexit Anyone ? (part 3) : Thu Jan 31, 2019 4:27 pm  

POSTL wrote:

What on earth are you on about, have you got some sort of massive chip on your shoulder, you was referring to people who wanted to leave the EU as Turkeys yesterday

I would advertise in the usual way, which I have done on many occasions, I have also employed individuals that were originally from overseas but have settled in this country and have unfortunately found themselves out of work and on the social. What is so wrong with that. When the applications came to me for shortlisting I only got the parts of the application that was relevant to the job.

I am well aware that things are not black and white, I was a Construction Project Manager for 25 years and had to go through the European tender process on my occasions because in the real world things are not black and white.

I think there was enough reasoning given to yesterdays comment, yesterday.
But, if you didn't understand the analogy or, didn't agree with it, that's ok.

The post that you has suggested that I may have a chip on my shoulder was following from Garbutts post, which you appeared to agree with " There shouldn't be a single foreign national receiving Universal Credit etc. IMHO".
If you dont agree with this comment, then great and you rightly point out that candidates should be assessed on merit and merit alone.
If that person is successful and the relevant checks all come back in good order, off you go. However, if something comes out of the woodwork and they are ineligible for work, then they, quite rightly would have their job offer revoked.

Re: Brexit Anyone ? (part 3) : Thu Jan 31, 2019 7:58 pm  

tigertot wrote:

There is a huge skills shortage in the construction industry. It is estimated 28% of construction workers in London are foreign. Why do you think that is? Who is going to replace them?

Your absolutely right re skills shortage I used Nurses, doctors as my analogy in my earlier post but the same has to be said about the building industry and that's why I said earlier I don't agree with Mays policy of 10s of thousands we need what we need ive absolutely no issues with that.

Just a small aside from your point. The last construction scheme I did it wasn't the lack of labour that was the problem it was getting hold of bricks, there had be such a lack of investment in construction they had massively reduced brick production. Good job it wasn't a large scheme

Re: Brexit Anyone ? (part 3) : Thu Jan 31, 2019 11:45 pm  

Bullseye wrote:

Must say I’m struggling to see how “no deal” is a bargaining chip for us.

Are you truly that clueless?

The threat of a negotiation failing is always a key bargaining chip. Or have you never sat in a boardroom thrashing out the minutiae of an agreement?

Evidently not.

Let's try again. While 'no deal' remains an option - and if Parliament drove us towards no deal - the EU would have to bend a little to avoid a hard border and the other chaos, and the reality is they absolutely do not want no deal. However, with 'no deal' off the table, they can sit back safe in the knowledge WE MUST TAKE THEIR DEAL (or remain). We no longer have a choice. We've backed ourselves into a corner. Their work is done, they can smoke a cigar and leave Parliament to wrangle it out.

I guarantee you the moment that vote went through Brussels was ringing to the sound of laughter. It's no coincidence they tweeted to reaffirm 'no renegotiation' literally 6 minutes later.

A hard border would be devastating to Ireland - hence why Varadkar has been doing his best to play hard ball this week. If Parliament could not agree on a deal (not unlikely) and by mid March we're looking at no deal, what do you think Ireland will be screaming at Brussels? Yep, they will be utterly desperate to renegotiate and get a deal in place. The EU cannot be seen to send one of their members to the wall. They would bend.

We lose all of that bargaining power if we legally take no deal off the table. Comprende?

Re: Brexit Anyone ? (part 3) : Fri Feb 01, 2019 7:27 am  

Cronus wrote:

Are you truly that clueless?

The threat of a negotiation failing is always a key bargaining chip. Or have you never sat in a boardroom thrashing out the minutiae of an agreement?

Evidently not.

Let's try again. While 'no deal' remains an option - and if Parliament drove us towards no deal - the EU would have to bend a little to avoid a hard border and the other chaos, and the reality is they absolutely do not want no deal. However, with 'no deal' off the table, they can sit back safe in the knowledge WE MUST TAKE THEIR DEAL (or remain). We no longer have a choice. We've backed ourselves into a corner. Their work is done, they can smoke a cigar and leave Parliament to wrangle it out.

I guarantee you the moment that vote went through Brussels was ringing to the sound of laughter. It's no coincidence they tweeted to reaffirm 'no renegotiation' literally 6 minutes later.

One of the strangest things to happen yesterday was word coming from the EU that, in the event of "no deal" there wouldn't be a hard border in Ireland ??
If this is remotely possible, which deoesn't seem right (at the moment), we could all move on.

A hard border would be devastating to Ireland - hence why Varadkar has been doing his best to play hard ball this week. If Parliament could not agree on a deal (not unlikely) and by mid March we're looking at no deal, what do you think Ireland will be screaming at Brussels? Yep, they will be utterly desperate to renegotiate and get a deal in place. The EU cannot be seen to send one of their members to the wall. They would bend.

We lose all of that bargaining power if we legally take no deal off the table. Comprende?

[Mild Rover]

Re: Brexit Anyone ? (part 3) : Fri Feb 01, 2019 8:21 am  

Cronus wrote:

Are you truly that clueless?

The threat of a negotiation failing is always a key bargaining chip. Or have you never sat in a boardroom thrashing out the minutiae of an agreement?

Evidently not.

Let's try again. While 'no deal' remains an option - and if Parliament drove us towards no deal - the EU would have to bend a little to avoid a hard border and the other chaos, and the reality is they absolutely do not want no deal. However, with 'no deal' off the table, they can sit back safe in the knowledge WE MUST TAKE THEIR DEAL (or remain). We no longer have a choice. We've backed ourselves into a corner. Their work is done, they can smoke a cigar and leave Parliament to wrangle it out.

I guarantee you the moment that vote went through Brussels was ringing to the sound of laughter. It's no coincidence they tweeted to reaffirm 'no renegotiation' literally 6 minutes later.

A hard border would be devastating to Ireland - hence why Varadkar has been doing his best to play hard ball this week. If Parliament could not agree on a deal (not unlikely) and by mid March we're looking at no deal, what do you think Ireland will be screaming at Brussels? Yep, they will be utterly desperate to renegotiate and get a deal in place. The EU cannot be seen to send one of their members to the wall. They would bend.

We lose all of that bargaining power if we legally take no deal off the table. Comprende?

But when we discuss an option as offering chaos and devastation, to convince them we’re not bluffing, we have to convince them we’re idiots. Mind you, it’s depressing to think how easily they could believe that nowadays.

A bullying ‘whites of our eyes’ approach to negotiation only really works when negotiating from a dominant position. We’re not. Also it damages trust, and we still have to negotiate a future relationship after the withdrawal agreement is done. Looking at mutual interests and for win-win options would be a more conventional and productive approach imo.

Until a deal is done, no deal always remains an option. The anti-no deal amendment passed by the Commons was as weak as water and non-binding. The ‘no renegotiation’ position of the EU was their response to the ‘please sir, I want some more’ Brady amendment. The general consensus seems to be that the chances of no deal went up following the most recent series of votes, so it is hardly off the table.

When you say Ireland will become desperate, start screaming and give way, is the implication that we’ll gain a sense of calm equanimity and stand firm in the face of the same doom. Are you saying that the Irish are weaker of will than us, or that we are more stupid/less sane?

Re: Brexit Anyone ? (part 3) : Fri Feb 01, 2019 8:42 am  

POSTL wrote:

Just a small aside from your point. The last construction scheme I did it wasn't the lack of labour that was the problem it was getting hold of bricks, there had be such a lack of investment in construction they had massively reduced brick production. Good job it wasn't a large scheme

You are correct about bricks. Part of the problem with it is that it takes months to fire up brick kilns & produce the bricks, which is an expensive upfront process. Suppliers aren't going to do that unless they have some surety about the longer term.
Steelwork has a similar scarcity, largely due to China gobbling up the world's supply. Ships are literally sailing the oceans with steel on board awaiting the highest bidder. This determines how & what can be built, as with bricks.
Back to Brexit, the bigger construction industry are bricking it (see what I did there?) about Brexit & a No-deal in particular, due to risks on imported plant, Materials & equipment, & the likely loss of labour.
I deal with national & international construction consultants & contractors every day & usually have no time for their corporate greed, but I can see already the effects this is having on major health, education & infrastructure projects.

[Bullseye]

Re: Brexit Anyone ? (part 3) : Fri Feb 01, 2019 9:16 am  

Cronus wrote:

Are you truly that clueless?

I see the usual courtesy and manners are on display.

Re: Brexit Anyone ? (part 3) : Fri Feb 01, 2019 9:50 am  

Cronus wrote:

Are you truly that clueless?

The threat of a negotiation failing is always a key bargaining chip. Or have you never sat in a boardroom thrashing out the minutiae of an agreement?

The macho world of the UK boardroom (AKA penis substitute) that got us diddly squat in Brussels.

Re: Brexit Anyone ? (part 3) : Fri Feb 01, 2019 10:48 am  

tigertot wrote:

You are correct about bricks. Part of the problem with it is that it takes months to fire up brick kilns & produce the bricks, which is an expensive upfront process. Suppliers aren't going to do that unless they have some surety about the longer term.
Steelwork has a similar scarcity, largely due to China gobbling up the world's supply. Ships are literally sailing the oceans with steel on board awaiting the highest bidder. This determines how & what can be built, as with bricks.
Back to Brexit, the bigger construction industry are bricking it (see what I did there?) about Brexit & a No-deal in particular, due to risks on imported plant, Materials & equipment, & the likely loss of labour.
I deal with national & international construction consultants & contractors every day & usually have no time for their corporate greed, but I can see already the effects this is having on major health, education & infrastructure projects.

Ive been out of the construction Industry for 4 years ( I no longer have to pay my exuberant fees to RICS and CIOB), therefore, I take on board everything you say matey, however, the building game has always been famine or feast, therefore, was always reluctant to directly employ more than a skeleton workforce directly, because of the uncertainty, up until recently people didn't want to work in the building industry. Was out with one of the directors from one of my old contractors, he was saying as such he had recently advertised for 2 apprentice Joiners and got 1 application. I also agree we do get certainly materials from overseas not only from the EU, however, I got fed up of contractors at monthly progress meetings having to explain late delivery because the materials were coming from outside the UK they can now as everyone else blame Brexit.

The last 15 years or so of my working Career, I worked in the Health Service (in Construction) if I had a scheme of over 1 million I think the threshold was which was not all but most of my schemes, I had to go through EOJU which was the European journal, this more than doubled the tender process, we got our budgets on the lst April and had to be completed, signed off and paid for by 1st of April the year after as that money was no longer there. we rarely got any EU companies sending in tenders, but when we did they never won any because of the prelims etc.

I have said it before, May has put a figure on what she would like to get immigration down to, my opinion is why put a number on it we need what we need if that's 100,000 then so be it. Neither do I understand when she says she will only want highly skilled Labour from overseas, I really don't know what that means or how that will help the building, hospitality industry etc.

I voted to leave and would do so again for many different reasons that I have also mentioned in a previous post, but i would like to point out that I and I would like to assume millions of other leave voters are not in the slightest against Immigration, I am against freedom of movement again for reasons I have also mentioned in previous posts.

Paul

Re: Brexit Anyone ? (part 3) : Fri Feb 01, 2019 10:54 am  

POSTL wrote:

Ive been out of the construction Industry for 4 years ( I no longer have to pay my exuberant fees to RICS and CIOB), therefore, I take on board everything you say matey, however, the building game has always been famine or feast, therefore, was always reluctant to directly employ more than a skeleton workforce directly, because of the uncertainty, up until recently people didn't want to work in the building industry. Was out with one of the directors from one of my old contractors, he was saying as such he had recently advertised for 2 apprentice Joiners and got 1 application. I also agree we do get certainly materials from overseas not only from the EU, however, I got fed up of contractors at monthly progress meetings having to explain late delivery because the materials were coming from outside the UK they can now as everyone else blame Brexit.

The last 15 years or so of my working Career, I worked in the Health Service (in Construction) if I had a scheme of over 1 million I think the threshold was which was not all but most of my schemes, I had to go through EOJU which was the European journal, this more than doubled the tender process, we got our budgets on the lst April and had to be completed, signed off and paid for by 1st of April the year after as that money was no longer there. we rarely got any EU companies sending in tenders, but when we did they never won any because of the prelims etc.

I have said it before, May has put a figure on what she would like to get immigration down to, my opinion is why put a number on it we need what we need if that's 100,000 then so be it. Neither do I understand when she says she will only want highly skilled Labour from overseas, I really don't know what that means or how that will help the building, hospitality industry etc.

I voted to leave and would do so again for many different reasons that I have also mentioned in a previous post, but i would like to point out that I and I would like to assume millions of other leave voters are not in the slightest against Immigration, I am against freedom of movement again for reasons I have also mentioned in previous posts.

Paul

Just for clarity, the OJOEU threshold has never been £1m,