Re: Have you all got a hi-vis vest? : Wed Feb 13, 2013 2:51 pm  

Ferocious Aardvark wrote:

What IS arrogant is for you to just assume that YOU have the right to that piece of tarmac and everyone should just get out of your way.

Particularly since, as I understand it, motorists use roads only by right of statute, whereas cyclists and pedestrians use them by right of common law.

The arrogance and bile displayed by some motorists towards cyclists still genuinely shocks me; I just don't understand what the problem is - most of us are also motorists and for the time we're on our bikes, we represent one less car on the road, so reducing the congestion that dogs most car journeys nowadays.

It's totally baffling.

Re: Have you all got a hi-vis vest? : Wed Feb 13, 2013 9:48 pm  

A bicyle isn't a dangerous vehicle ergo having a set test before being allowed on the road isn't required, A car is dangerous many thousands of times over, bigger vehicles even more so, you need to be licensed to operate dangerous machinery on the road, that's the law.
As Bren says, we have a right to be there, motor vehicles and their drivers don't, they are privileged by license.

As for helmets, I'm sure those that think the efficacy of a bit of plastic and polystyrene foam is anything like enough to stop more than minor cuts and bruises don't really know what they are talking about or don't want to understand how rubbish they are. Have you seen the drop test done to pass the standard?

People spout oh my helmet broke in two it saved my life...no it didn't, it actually failed by breaking.
And if you don't know about rotational injuries from studies done regarding car occupents and how helmets can cause such then read up and read some more about risk compensation as to why helmets are next to useless and worse.
I watched a crash involving Mark Cavendish a few years ago, the only reason the 6 cyclists heads came into contact with the ground was because of the extra circumference of the helmet, without the helmet their heads would have missed the ground completely. Many hits to the head would not even occur if it weren't for the increased circumference a helmet gives you.

Even in countries where helmets were made compulsary they have found that head injuries/accident rates DO NOT GO DOWN BUT UP!!!
In Australia since the introduction of the law almost 50% of people stopped cycling overnight in some states, this has a dramatic effect on long term population health problems, adding more traffic on the roads (more pollution chemical and noise), it has being proven without doubt what a stupid law it was. it is very likely that they will rescind the law in the future as have other countries.
Have a look at Denmark and the Netherlands where cycling rates are very high but helmet wearing is almost unheard of even by children
So if you think you're being protected by your magic hat and that it will save you from being crushed/maimed or worse that's up to you but in my personal opinion and of riding over 140,000 miles in my life and that of many other more qualified people I say it won't, nor will it protect you anything like to the extent you've being brainwashed into thinking it does.

Re: Have you all got a hi-vis vest? : Wed Feb 13, 2013 10:58 pm  

See- I told you there was a sizeable % of cyclists who were adamantly against wearing helmets.

I think the main point is that in collisions at speed versus motor vehicles then a helmet is not going to make one iota of difference to your injuries, nor protect your head if it takes the impact, but for a fall from a bike not involving a collision with a motor vehicle, and for children, it has its place, when you're falling to the ground you don't have a lot of time to think about where you're going to put your head and if 20mm of foam padding comes between you and a kerb at 10mph then its better then your skull being the first point of impact, or at least thats where I'd place my money anyway.

I wouldn't dream of forcing anyone else to wear one though, or try and persuade them to do so.

[Kosh]

Re: Have you all got a hi-vis vest? : Wed Feb 13, 2013 11:22 pm  

knockersbumpMKII wrote:

A bicyle isn't a dangerous vehicle

Try telling that to a pedestrian mowed down by one.

knockersbumpMKII wrote:

As Bren says, we have a right to be there, motor vehicles and their drivers don't, they are privileged by license.

And this is an archaic irrelevance.

knockersbumpMKII wrote:

People spout oh my helmet broke in two it saved my life...no it didn't, it actually failed by breaking

Actually not necessarily true. Even in breaking some of the impact energy was absorbed.

And BTW, I don't expect a cycle helmet to be some kind of 'magic hat' that will protect me from all danger. I do, however, prefer to have something other than my scalp hit the tarmac if it comes to that.

[Kosh]

Re: Have you all got a hi-vis vest? : Wed Feb 13, 2013 11:26 pm  

bren2k wrote:

The arrogance and bile displayed by some motorists towards cyclists still genuinely shocks me; I just don't understand what the problem is - most of us are also motorists and for the time we're on our bikes, we represent one less car on the road, so reducing the congestion that dogs most car journeys nowadays.

It's totally baffling.

It's a number of things - the equally arrogant and holier-than-thou attitude displayed by a fair number of cyclists, the perceived holdups, the ignoring of the rules of the road, etc. And yes I do realise it's a minority, but the same is true of motorists.

I have no problem whatsoever with cyclists BTW - unless one is being a dick. But that's the same for motorists and pedestrians as well.

Re: Have you all got a hi-vis vest? : Thu Feb 14, 2013 1:11 am  

Kosh wrote:

Try telling that to a pedestrian mowed down by one.

And this is an archaic irrelevance.

Actually not necessarily true. Even in breaking some of the impact energy was absorbed.

And BTW, I don't expect a cycle helmet to be some kind of 'magic hat' that will protect me from all danger. I do, however, prefer to have something other than my scalp hit the tarmac if it comes to that.

You are correct of course there are some pretty stupid people out there most seem to drive cars but some ride bikes as well. the same incident with a bike isn't remotely anything like that from a motorised vehicle is it, the chances of a cyclist seriously injuring/killing another person is pretty rare indeed, with a car/van/lorry that cannot be said at all.
I wouldn't dream of stopping you from wearing your helmet but my response was mainly in for Standee who clearly seems to think that replying "what utter shiote" means he must be right about helmets and I (& the experts) are clearly wrong regarding the issues they present.
Personally I've been knocked off a fair few times, crashed at nearly 30mph due to a hidden pothole 6ft across a road and a few offs through my own fault but I've never banged my head once. The pothole incident anecdotally would have seen me damage my neck/head pretty severly if I had been wearing a helmet.
Sadly many cyclists (even those high up) seem to think helmets have magical properties and prevent anything from a snapped hip to a broken wrist and will ward off that 40 tonner from crushing you..understanding their real limitations and the false protection (& thus risk compensation becomes a factor) is very important IMO

As I said upthread I'm totally okay with young children wearing them but beyond that I see no reason to continue as any small benefit is skewed by the negatives. My own son never wore one in the 7 years he rode to school, others do what they feel is right for their kids but I'll always point out the actual facts not made up carp that comes from certain corners..

Re: Have you all got a hi-vis vest? : Thu Feb 14, 2013 7:14 am  

more myopia from cyclists, between them and kirkstaller we have some right crackpots on RLFans

Re: Have you all got a hi-vis vest? : Thu Feb 14, 2013 9:18 am  

knockersbumpMKII wrote:

You are correct of course there are some pretty stupid people out there most seem to drive cars but some ride bikes as well. the same incident with a bike isn't remotely anything like that from a motorised vehicle is it, the chances of a cyclist seriously injuring/killing another person is pretty rare indeed, with a car/van/lorry that cannot be said at all.
I wouldn't dream of stopping you from wearing your helmet but my response was mainly in for Standee who clearly seems to think that replying "what utter shiote" means he must be right about helmets and I (& the experts) are clearly wrong regarding the issues they present.
Personally I've been knocked off a fair few times, crashed at nearly 30mph due to a hidden pothole 6ft across a road and a few offs through my own fault but I've never banged my head once. The pothole incident anecdotally would have seen me damage my neck/head pretty severly if I had been wearing a helmet.
Sadly many cyclists (even those high up) seem to think helmets have magical properties and prevent anything from a snapped hip to a broken wrist and will ward off that 40 tonner from crushing you..understanding their real limitations and the false protection (& thus risk compensation becomes a factor) is very important IMO

As I said upthread I'm totally okay with young children wearing them but beyond that I see no reason to continue as any small benefit is skewed by the negatives. My own son never wore one in the 7 years he rode to school, others do what they feel is right for their kids but I'll always point out the actual facts not made up carp that comes from certain corners..

Can you elaborate so I can understand why wearing a helmet is so dangerous?

I know my helmet has been designed to absorb impact. The only time it has been remotely tested is on low twigs which admitedly wouldn't have casued me a head injury other than a few scratches, but it did prevent them. If I fell off on a road, I can't imagine a scenario where I would prefer not to wear a helmet.

Other than statistics of helmets purchased to head injuries, without me spending time trawling the internet, what other evidence is there that helmets are dangerous?

Re: Have you all got a hi-vis vest? : Thu Feb 14, 2013 9:49 am  

West Leeds Rhino wrote:

Can you elaborate so I can understand why wearing a helmet is so dangerous?

I know my helmet has been designed to absorb impact. The only time it has been remotely tested is on low twigs which admitedly wouldn't have casued me a head injury other than a few scratches, but it did prevent them. If I fell off on a road, I can't imagine a scenario where I would prefer not to wear a helmet.

Other than statistics of helmets purchased to head injuries, without me spending time trawling the internet, what other evidence is there that helmets are dangerous?

The main arguments against (and I'm not a supporter of them) seem to always concern high speed impacts (high speed on a bike that is), collisions with motor vehicles (they have a point there), and a factor best described as the expectation that when you put a helmet you are automatically protected and will therefore be more reckless.

I'm not quite sure where the last theory came from but helmet or no helmet, five minutes cycling in commuter traffic will soon dash any such immortal theories from your head as you soon realise that you are often invisible to some motorists, or if not invisible they assume that giving you two inches of room when passing you is sufficient - I can imagine anyone still having invincible feelings after just one trip in commuter traffic.

Fact of the matter is that if you fall off a bike at any speed its going to hurt and I don't really see the argument against trying to mitigate some of that hurt.

Re: Have you all got a hi-vis vest? : Thu Feb 14, 2013 10:14 am  

Many years back we had exactly the same arguments about helmets on motorbikes. Helmets won, and many years have passed.

There are many other places in the world where helmets are not compulsory. Yet still nobody can produce compelling proof that overall compulsion was a definite benefit.

Of course there will always be individual cases where a helmet will definitively have saved a rider's life just as there will always be cases where had a helmet, or seatbelt, NOT been worn, a car occupant probably would not have died, but then the inevitability of rare exceptions was known even by those promoting the new laws.

In the case of seatbelts, I think the benefit of compulison is obvious. Even though a few will be injured or die because of it. In the case of helmets, I am not convinced. But at least a helmet does indisputably provide serious protection against - say- a substantial argument with a kerb edge.

In the case of cycle helmets, I'm sort of the other way, and it should certainly remain entirely optional, (for adults not children) in my opinion, given the widely conflicting research data and arguments.

Incidentally, why does every Tour de France rider wear one?