Re: Dogs : Wed Nov 13, 2013 7:00 am  

[quote="Ferocious Aardvark"

I mentioned earlier this evening JC's specific problem to this trainer over the phone and he has previously dealt with a similar case, it isn't new to him.[/quote]

And if he claims he can sort it in one session than he can't be a very good trainer as a trainer would understand how deep rooted the problem is and will be able to see that it will take a good deal of time, patience, understanding. The first session would be about getting to know you and your dog before a method is even worked out on the way to go.

As for pack leader, we'll agree to disagree. I've linked articles that scientifically disagree, I even linked a quote from a revered behaviourist that he even says we are more like parents than a pack leader to back up my point, I haven't seen any proof of yours.

Re: Dogs : Wed Nov 13, 2013 8:35 am  

Unbelievably and in that way that dogs do just to throw you, we've just had our first solo walk (for a long time) using a couple of distraction techniques that have not worked previously, if I can get him beyond the end of the street AND walking fast AND on a long lead so that he doesn't feel restrained AND with the aid of a very smelly dog sausage then he'll continue albeit that there are memory points on the walk that he recognises as being turning points for home, we got to one this morning and he almost hit panic mode trying to turn back so I let him on this occasion - little and often, next time we won't go to that corner

Fortunately I'm off work this week so plenty of time for dog therapy.

I'm knackered now though.

Re: Dogs : Wed Nov 13, 2013 8:55 am  

JerryChicken wrote:

Unbelievably and in that way that dogs do just to throw you, we've just had our first solo walk (for a long time) using a couple of distraction techniques that have not worked previously, if I can get him beyond the end of the street AND walking fast AND on a long lead so that he doesn't feel restrained AND with the aid of a very smelly dog sausage then he'll continue albeit that there are memory points on the walk that he recognises as being turning points for home, we got to one this morning and he almost hit panic mode trying to turn back so I let him on this occasion - little and often, next time we won't go to that corner

Fortunately I'm off work this week so plenty of time for dog therapy.

I'm knackered now though.

Thats brilliant. Its really satisfying when you see progress being made albeit just a small one. I use the distraction technique when Starbug asked me about approaching on lead dogs. I've also used it this morning as I deviated my route this morning as I had to take Mr HWS car to garage and didn't want it smelling of wet, muddy dog, so went down the old railway line but its continuous bikes so I used that method to bring them close to me and wait until the bike has passed us. It can work well as it did for me, until they spotted a whole loaf of bread just dumped, so it was on the lead and we turned around and came back because I knew they would just keep running back to it.

If you see him panicking, let him go home, tomorrows another day. Like I said, he has such a deep rooted problem that it may never be solved, but for me, just making the progress you have today is by far more satisfying then having a "quick fix" that may solve the problem today, but may not solve his underlying issues for tomorrow.

Re: Dogs : Wed Nov 13, 2013 9:08 am  

Hull White Star wrote:

Thats brilliant. , until they spotted a whole loaf of bread just dumped, so it was on the lead and we turned around and came back because I knew they would just keep running back to it.
.

Not very obediant or well trained after all, mine does what he's told

Re: Dogs : Wed Nov 13, 2013 9:41 am  

Hull White Star wrote:

And if he claims he can sort it in one session than he can't be a very good trainer as a trainer would understand how deep rooted the problem is and will be able to see that it will take a good deal of time, patience, understanding. The first session would be about getting to know you and your dog before a method is even worked out on the way to go.

He has sorted out problems for me with one session. It is no good you claiming he can't - he does. This does not mean quite a miracle "cure", for want of a better word, you are left with the tools to continue to work on the behaviour, and it may take you some time to work on it, but usually, he won't need to come back. This is what I mean by sorted. Not sprinkling some instant magic dust.

Hull White Star wrote:

As for pack leader, we'll agree to disagree. I've linked articles that scientifically disagree, I even linked a quote from a revered behaviourist that he even says we are more like parents than a pack leader to back up my point, I haven't seen any proof of yours.

You're obsessing on the phrase "pack leader" because you read something, but you would be better off trying to understand the situation on the ground. Whether dogs, if they could talk, would use the phrase pack leader, parent, or pak choi, the point is, they know who the decision makers are. Your remark, in this context, is pure semantics.

You also misunderstand your own research. Parents are in the main a permanent and immutable fixture. So how do you explain that a trainer whom the dogs have never seen before can walk in and quickly be able to control their behaviour? My explanation is he knows a lot about how they think and about behaviour, and relationships in the dog world, and is able to give out the cues that dogs naturally understand. They quickly "get it" and are happy to take their lead from him. You, presumably, could only explain this phenomenon by saying that the dogs must have sacked me and promoted him to parent!? What happens when he leaves, then?

Re: Dogs : Wed Nov 13, 2013 9:58 am  

Just in case anyone is interested, the new Dogs Trust campaign for those who are thinking of obtaining a dog by whatever means ... http://www.presspaws.org.uk/

Just in case anyone is interested, the new Dogs Trust campaign for those who are thinking of obtaining a dog by whatever means ... http://www.presspaws.org.uk/

Re: Dogs : Wed Nov 13, 2013 10:07 am  

Starbug wrote:

Not very obediant or well trained after all, mine does what he's told

Lol, so do mine for the most , but unfortunately my lurcher survived on the streets by scavenging and its not something that can be erased from her memory or something that can be trained out of her. I have sought help about what we can do, but I live in the middle of a city which, like any other city, is usually strewn with litter wherever we go. Its hard to find somewhere close to where I live to walk which is free of bins, litter, wheelie bins etc.

Re: Dogs : Wed Nov 13, 2013 10:35 am  

Ferocious Aardvark wrote:

He has sorted out problems for me with one session. It is no good you claiming he can't - he does. This does not mean quite a miracle "cure", for want of a better word, you are left with the tools to continue to work on the behaviour, and it may take you some time to work on it, but usually, he won't need to come back. This is what I mean by sorted. Not sprinkling some instant magic dust.

You're obsessing on the phrase "pack leader" because you read something, but you would be better off trying to understand the situation on the ground. Whether dogs, if they could talk, would use the phrase pack leader, parent, or pak choi, the point is, they know who the decision makers are. Your remark, in this context, is pure semantics.

You also misunderstand your own research. Parents are in the main a permanent and immutable fixture. So how do you explain that a trainer whom the dogs have never seen before can walk in and quickly be able to control their behaviour? My explanation is he knows a lot about how they think and about behaviour, and relationships in the dog world, and is able to give out the cues that dogs naturally understand. They quickly "get it" and are happy to take their lead from him. You, presumably, could only explain this phenomenon by saying that the dogs must have sacked me and promoted him to parent!? What happens when he leaves, then?

I haven't read something I have read a multitude of articles, magazines (which I subscribe to) and books, the best book by far is "In Defence of Dogs" by John Bradshaw. In it he explains how the pack theory is rebuffed and refuted. If you apply pack theory methods in your training (which, as I have quoted you, you say you do) then surely you believe in pack theory, as in who is top dog etc.? Mr HWS and I both share being care givers to them. They don't see either of us as pack leader, as far as they are concerned we are equal. I don't go through the door first to prove I am pack leader, they know I am not a dog and dogs have not been going through doors last for thousands of years to prove they are "alpha male", likewise I don't pretend to eat out of their bowl before my own meal. They know humans didn't eat their pray thousands of years ago before they did. I don't have to prove I am a dog (trying to be pack leader), they know this already.

I am trying to say that there is no "top dog", there is no "alpha male", John Bradshaw, in his book explains all of this. Its a good read for anyone interested in how dogs came to be besides humans and how they have evolved and how "pack theory" (as in alpha etc) has now been scientifically disproved.

I don't misunderstand my own research at all. People have belived (wrongly) that there has been a pack hierarchy with an alpha male and tuned training methods to suit this (you included, as you said). I now know how to alter my training methods (and understanding behaviour) based on the new research.

Your trainer can get your dogs to do whatever because he has experience and knows what he's looking for. Once he teaches you, you will be able to do exactly the same thing. An example is clicker training, once your trainer has showed and explained to you the timing of clicking, your dog will do for you as he does for your trainer. My two love clicker training because they know a treat is always coming, its just very limiting for me as I can't easily get down on the floor to their level to get started with stuff

Re: Dogs : Wed Nov 13, 2013 10:58 am  

As if on cue Dogs Today magazine drops through my letter box with some useful articles about what we are discussing

The first "Manners Maketh the Dog" - the by line:

"Dogs are not born knowing hot to behave in a way that doesn't annoy others....................So rather than let them do as they please, owners, just like the parents of a child need to teach their dogs good manners."

Its the way you teach those manners thats important for me. If you believe you are the pack leader(as in your family and your dogs are your pack and a pack always has an alpha male) you will apply training methods that favour "top dog". If you believe you are not in a pack but are a leader, you will apply training methods that favour manners, etc.

The other article is "A click works a treat" has a paragraph:

".........Concepts like teaching through dominance and hierarchies, although popular, are actually inaccurate and potentially harmful"

It goes on to work through using the clicker as a reward based method, for instance instead of shouting and using your "I'm the pack leader" attitude to get your dog off the sofa/bed/chair, instead show him his own bed is where he should be be getting out the clicker and reinforcing the wanted behaviour.

Well worth a read and very apt that it should arrive as I was typing about dog behaviour

Re: Dogs : Wed Nov 13, 2013 11:24 am  

JerryChicken wrote: Just in case anyone is interested, the new Dogs Trust campaign for those who are thinking of obtaining a dog by whatever means ... http://www.presspaws.org.uk/ Don't think I'll be acquiring one of our four legged friends anytime soon if it makes me as dogmatic as some of the owners on this thread. Boom-boom.

JerryChicken wrote: Just in case anyone is interested, the new Dogs Trust campaign for those who are thinking of obtaining a dog by whatever means ... http://www.presspaws.org.uk/ Don't think I'll be acquiring one of our four legged friends anytime soon if it makes me as dogmatic as some of the owners on this thread. Boom-boom.