Re: Brexit Anyone ? (part 3) : Fri Feb 22, 2019 9:22 am  

Sal Paradise wrote:

Corbyn has suggested that the minimum wage be raised to £10/hour - seems like a good idea until you think about who is going to pay for it. Take Morrisons the impact of a minimum wages increase on that company will be to halve their profits.

Who do you think is paying for low wages now? Businesses are effectively being subsidised through tax credits to pay poverty wages - so that shareholders can keep creaming large dividends, whilst the means of production (the workers) are kept in thrall through low pay and reliance on state aid.

Perhaps the economy needs to be rebalanced to such an extent that the super wealthy have to accept that there is such a thing as 'enough' money - and that making a profit out of a business that does not rely on state subsidised wages is still possible, but there are limits if one is to accept a wider social responsibility. The problem with late stage capitalism, is that the last bit is talked about on websites and in policies, but it doesn't actually exist at the top of organisations.

Re: Brexit Anyone ? (part 3) : Fri Feb 22, 2019 10:20 am  

bren2k wrote:

Who do you think is paying for low wages now? Businesses are effectively being subsidised through tax credits to pay poverty wages - so that shareholders can keep creaming large dividends, whilst the means of production (the workers) are kept in thrall through low pay and reliance on state aid.

Perhaps the economy needs to be rebalanced to such an extent that the super wealthy have to accept that there is such a thing as 'enough' money - and that making a profit out of a business that does not rely on state subsidised wages is still possible, but there are limits if one is to accept a wider social responsibility. The problem with late stage capitalism, is that the last bit is talked about on websites and in policies, but it doesn't actually exist at the top of organisations.

Nail on head Bren.
People dont realise that the government is actually subsidising ALL businesses.
Mind you, left to their own devices, big business would be happy for its workers to live in poverty "as long as the work gets done".
If you go back in history and look at some of the major capital projects, people were utterly expendable and thousands lost their lives constructing railways, roads, mining.
Thankfully, a more civilised society has deemed this intolerable but, greed seem to be the driving factor is so much of the modern world.
I dont actually know how this can be changed.
Maybe its time to rid the world of tax havans and tax avoidance schemes.

The hypocrisy in how we are supposed to "worship" the rich and famous, who earn millions and yet avoid paying their share of tax. Maybe it's time that these people were called out for being "cheats" of the state, rather than super stars.

Re: Brexit Anyone ? (part 3) : Fri Feb 22, 2019 10:24 am  

wrencat1873 wrote:

Nail on head Bren.
People dont realise that the government is actually subsidising ALL businesses.
Mind you, left to their own devices, big business would be happy for its workers to live in poverty "as long as the work gets done".
If you go back in history and look at some of the major capital projects, people were utterly expendable and thousands lost their lives constructing railways, roads, mining.
Thankfully, a more civilised society has deemed this intolerable but, greed seem to be the driving factor is so much of the modern world.
I dont actually know how this can be changed.
Maybe its time to rid the world of tax havans and tax avoidance schemes.

The hypocrisy in how we are supposed to "worship" the rich and famous, who earn millions and yet avoid paying their share of tax. Maybe it's time that these people were called out for being "cheats" of the state, rather than super stars.

And that's exactly what Labour are proposing to do - hence the massive and organised mobilisation of the establishment, including the Blairite centrists in their own ranks, to prevent them at all costs.

Welcome aboard comrade - solidarity!

Re: Brexit Anyone ? (part 3) : Fri Feb 22, 2019 1:20 pm  

Sal Paradise wrote:

Corbyn has suggested that the minimum wage be raised to £10/hour - seems like a good idea until you think about who is going to pay for it. Take Morrisons the impact of a minimum wages increase on that company will be to halve their profits. So its likely that prices will rise its pretty certain so we all pay but what happens in the public sector who pays?

This gets trotted out by the right every time increasing the pay of the lowest paid is suggested. Strange how the world didn't stop. Neither did the lowest paid cause the world financial crisis. Also strange how the 'happiest' countries in the world tend to have lower gaps between the lower & higher paid, & the lowest wage is closest to the average. And those countries are prosperous.

Sal Paradise wrote:

Governments waste money because it doesn't matter if budgets are not kept to

Cobblers. More unsubstantiated right wing drivel. I manage public money, the private companies I employ constantly are looking for ways to break that budget.

Re: Brexit Anyone ? (part 3) : Fri Feb 22, 2019 2:41 pm  

tigertot wrote:

Cobblers. More unsubstantiated right wing drivel. I manage public money, the private companies I employ constantly are looking for ways to break that budget.

As you manage public money, can I ask you a serious question.
What happens if you or one of your colleagues overspends the budget ?

Would you be sacked, lose any bonus entitlement (I know that this may not be on the table in the first place) or suffer any serious fall out ? or, would it just be a hefty bollocking ?

Although I have no doubt that you carry out your work diligently, having a boss who's actual money you may be overspending cannot compare to going over budget in public office.

Re: Brexit Anyone ? (part 3) : Fri Feb 22, 2019 3:05 pm  

wrencat1873 wrote:

As you manage public money, can I ask you a serious question.
What happens if you or one of your colleagues overspends the budget ?

Would you be sacked, lose any bonus entitlement (I know that this may not be on the table in the first place) or suffer any serious fall out ? or, would it just be a hefty bollocking ?

Although I have no doubt that you carry out your work diligently, having a boss who's actual money you may be overspending cannot compare to going over budget in public office.

We have an overall budget (>£500m over 5 years) for my programme. That is broken down into many projects, each has its own budget. Each should contain sensible contingencies. There is a change control process with approvals at escalating levels. I don't need shouting at or belittling if a job goes wrong, but I do need to work out why & avoid it the next time. Overall we are well under budget, because we are good at what we do, but some individual projects have had serious cost pressures. I get no bonus, car, private health insurance, just a basic salary & a degree of job security. There is undoubtedly poor performance in other areas of the section, but that is down to bad management that has allowed to go for years. There are processes in place for dealing with poor performance but it is the hardest part of the job.
I worked in the private sector prior to my current area of work. The issues are the same; if you are going over budget you either value engineer (effectively reduce scope) or the client pays.

Re: Brexit Anyone ? (part 3) : Sat Feb 23, 2019 2:29 pm  

bren2k wrote:

Who do you think is paying for low wages now? Businesses are effectively being subsidised through tax credits to pay poverty wages - so that shareholders can keep creaming large dividends, whilst the means of production (the workers) are kept in thrall through low pay and reliance on state aid.

Perhaps the economy needs to be rebalanced to such an extent that the super wealthy have to accept that there is such a thing as 'enough' money - and that making a profit out of a business that does not rely on state subsidised wages is still possible, but there are limits if one is to accept a wider social responsibility. The problem with late stage capitalism, is that the last bit is talked about on websites and in policies, but it doesn't actually exist at the top of organisations.

How do the low paid get paid through taxation revenue or government borrowing - where does the taxation come from - the majority from the private sector. So the shareholders - a big chunk of which will provide your pension on retirement are using the dividends to provide a return on the monies invested by you and me.

If your saying increase minimum wage lower benefits - I'm Ok with that but be prepared for an increase in inflation, unemployment and an increase in business failures. Unless we are all prepared to pay more - business has to pass on increases in cost or go bust.

I don't disagree that a rebalancing needs to happen somehow but are you seriously suggesting a cap on corporate profitability i.e. what is enough profit?

One thing is certain if the government takes over transport and utilities the prices will not be coming down they will go up at a faster rate than they currently are.

[Mild Rover]

Re: Brexit Anyone ? (part 3) : Sat Feb 23, 2019 5:31 pm  

Sal Paradise wrote: How do the low paid get paid through taxation revenue or government borrowing - where does the taxation come from - the majority from the private sector. So the shareholders - a big chunk of which will provide your pension on retirement are using the dividends to provide a return on the monies invested by you and me. If your saying increase minimum wage lower benefits - I'm Ok with that but be prepared for an increase in inflation, unemployment and an increase in business failures. Unless we are all prepared to pay more - business has to pass on increases in cost or go bust. I don't disagree that a rebalancing needs to happen somehow but are you seriously suggesting a cap on corporate profitability i.e. what is enough profit? One thing is certain if the government takes over transport and utilities the prices will not be coming down they will go up at a faster rate than they currently are. A big chunk of revenue come from citizens (subjects, whatever). Much of that from them selling their labour to the private sector - workers need jobs and jobs need workers. But we as individuals pay income tax, even if our employers (private or public) collect it on the government’s behalf. https://www.economicshelp.org/blog/4001 ... ces-in-uk/ According to the above, in 2011-12 uk tax revenue (in billions of £) was derived from: Income tax: 158 National insurance: 101 VAT: 100 Corporation tax: 48 Excise duties: 46 Council tax: 26 Business rates: 25 Other: 85 Also, it is not certain if the government takes over transport and utilities the prices will not be coming down they will go up at a faster rate than they currently are. We could argue about the likelihood, but it is nowhere near certain, however confident you are on the point.

Sal Paradise wrote: How do the low paid get paid through taxation revenue or government borrowing - where does the taxation come from - the majority from the private sector. So the shareholders - a big chunk of which will provide your pension on retirement are using the dividends to provide a return on the monies invested by you and me. If your saying increase minimum wage lower benefits - I'm Ok with that but be prepared for an increase in inflation, unemployment and an increase in business failures. Unless we are all prepared to pay more - business has to pass on increases in cost or go bust. I don't disagree that a rebalancing needs to happen somehow but are you seriously suggesting a cap on corporate profitability i.e. what is enough profit? One thing is certain if the government takes over transport and utilities the prices will not be coming down they will go up at a faster rate than they currently are. A big chunk of revenue come from citizens (subjects, whatever). Much of that from them selling their labour to the private sector - workers need jobs and jobs need workers. But we as individuals pay income tax, even if our employers (private or public) collect it on the government’s behalf. https://www.economicshelp.org/blog/4001 ... ces-in-uk/ According to the above, in 2011-12 uk tax revenue (in billions of £) was derived from: Income tax: 158 National insurance: 101 VAT: 100 Corporation tax: 48 Excise duties: 46 Council tax: 26 Business rates: 25 Other: 85 Also, it is not certain if the government takes over transport and utilities the prices will not be coming down they will go up at a faster rate than they currently are. We could argue about the likelihood, but it is nowhere near certain, however confident you are on the point.

Re: Brexit Anyone ? (part 3) : Sun Feb 24, 2019 9:49 am  

Mild Rover wrote: A big chunk of revenue come from citizens (subjects, whatever). Much of that from them selling their labour to the private sector - workers need jobs and jobs need workers. But we as individuals pay income tax, even if our employers (private or public) collect it on the government’s behalf. https://www.economicshelp.org/blog/4001 ... ces-in-uk/ According to the above, in 2011-12 uk tax revenue (in billions of £) was derived from: Income tax: 158 National insurance: 101 VAT: 100 Corporation tax: 48 Excise duties: 46 Council tax: 26 Business rates: 25 Other: 85 Also, it is not certain if the government takes over transport and utilities the prices will not be coming down they will go up at a faster rate than they currently are. We could argue about the likelihood, but it is nowhere near certain, however confident you are on the point. Can anyone recall a government run industry where the prices have come down or have ever did come down?

Mild Rover wrote: A big chunk of revenue come from citizens (subjects, whatever). Much of that from them selling their labour to the private sector - workers need jobs and jobs need workers. But we as individuals pay income tax, even if our employers (private or public) collect it on the government’s behalf. https://www.economicshelp.org/blog/4001 ... ces-in-uk/ According to the above, in 2011-12 uk tax revenue (in billions of £) was derived from: Income tax: 158 National insurance: 101 VAT: 100 Corporation tax: 48 Excise duties: 46 Council tax: 26 Business rates: 25 Other: 85 Also, it is not certain if the government takes over transport and utilities the prices will not be coming down they will go up at a faster rate than they currently are. We could argue about the likelihood, but it is nowhere near certain, however confident you are on the point. Can anyone recall a government run industry where the prices have come down or have ever did come down?

[Mild Rover]

Re: Brexit Anyone ? (part 3) : Sun Feb 24, 2019 10:46 am  

Sal Paradise wrote: Can anyone recall a government run industry where the prices have come down or have ever did come down? As a before and after: https://www.historyextra.com/period/20t ... care-free/ The national institute of care excellence in England (the SMC in Scotland and the AWMSG in Wales) does a massively better job of securing drugs at affordable prices than the Byzantine patchwork of approaches in the US. While I don’t agree with their America First solution, here is a rare example of the Trump administration accurately identifying a problem. https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/0 ... pay-drugs/ As the US Health and Human Services Secretary says, ‘the reason they are getting better net prices than we get is their socialized system.’ It’s a key area in which Liam Fox will need to stand strong in his desperate efforts to secure a face-savingly swift post-Brexit trade deal with the US. I’m sure it’ll be fine.

Sal Paradise wrote: Can anyone recall a government run industry where the prices have come down or have ever did come down? As a before and after: https://www.historyextra.com/period/20t ... care-free/ The national institute of care excellence in England (the SMC in Scotland and the AWMSG in Wales) does a massively better job of securing drugs at affordable prices than the Byzantine patchwork of approaches in the US. While I don’t agree with their America First solution, here is a rare example of the Trump administration accurately identifying a problem. https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/0 ... pay-drugs/ As the US Health and Human Services Secretary says, ‘the reason they are getting better net prices than we get is their socialized system.’ It’s a key area in which Liam Fox will need to stand strong in his desperate efforts to secure a face-savingly swift post-Brexit trade deal with the US. I’m sure it’ll be fine.