Both defendants will probably insist it wasn't their decision and they were against it. It was their partner/in laws/parents.

The only convictions will be against the religious zealots who insist they were doing right all along.



You consider FGM to be child abuse. Aren't you wanting the children to be taken away from their parents for that anyway?



FGM is completely different from one parent sexually abusing a child. You're claiming that it is an easy issue for the authorities to solve when it's blatantly obvious that it isn't.



The NHS estimates that 60,000 females in the UK have had this done to them. UNICEF estimate 125 million females worldwide have had this performed on them.

IMO we've done all we can in the UK. I support the UK in eradicating FGM worldwide, but I feel it would be lunacy to start criminalizing UK citizens for having different beliefs to us.



Their parents had the FGM performed. But it is YOU who is pushing them to be jailed for that when no one else wants to go there. Girls and women aren't coming forward to report their parents for this. They don't deem it worthy of further action, but you do.



This thread is only here because of the utterly awful child protection system in this country. You want more kids thrown into this system. Thankfully you are one of the few people who think that way.

So, you proposal for a better alternative would be? ...

Perhaps you'd be better served by actually reading the post I initially responded to, instead of making things up as you go along.

I was accused of living in a "leafy suburb": Wincanton, as a small, West Country market town, is hardly Surbiton or Virginia Water.

Mind you, I've still managed to live and work among diverse populations in Malaysia and Kenya without too many problems that I can recall

'Muslim isn't a race' - that's exactly what the EDL say when they defend themselves against accusations of being racist.

They were targeted because their abusers regarded them as western 'white trash' and the only article mentioning Asian girls being abused say's they had become 'too English' so it was their own fault!

IMO anybody trying to deny there was a racist element in these crimes are so PC they have disappeared up their own anuses.

But it isn't, in the same way that Jewish isn't a race, nor Anglican. They are religions, practised by peoples of many races

So anti-semitism isn't racist?

Why such a cynical and pessimistic view of the law? One frequent outcome of such mutual defences for assorted crimes is BOTH being convicted. I have faith in juries in general to see straight through bogus defences, and I am sure you grossly underestimate how hard it is to mount a fake defence in police questioning without tripping yourself and each other up. Then there are the conspiracy laws. At any rate, none of your comments are even the beginning of a reason not to try to prosecute.


No, I hold FGM to be self-evidently child abuse. Anyone who disagrees I would view as a pervert or a religious zealot.

Oh yes, in the long run far better for them to be raised in a non-religious-nutjob environment, by people who love and respect them, and don't want to get religious nutjobs to mutilate them without anaesthetic. However the main aim in this area must surely be to identify girls at RISK of being subjected to FGM and taking steps to prevent it from happening in the first place. Sadly religion is so prevalent that it is no good advocating removing children from even the most fanatical religionists, as the starting point is the impossibility of any such course. But a child who HAS BEEN mutilated? Yep, the parents do not deserve the child and it needs urgent medical help which clearly the parents have no intention of providing.


It's really not. Performing mutilation to genitals is very clearly abuse, and the whole point of it seems to be because the offending body parts are deemed religiously unacceptable as they are sexual organs.


Easy? I never claimed any such thing. It is obviously difficult. But they should have started the prosecutions many years ago, learned from them, developed their methods and in general made it clear by actions that our society simply will not tolerate FGM. The inaction I am sure has convinced proponents of FGM that it is tolerated. They clearly feel safe.


We have done NOTHING though. Not one prosecution for your claimed 60,000 mutilations. Secondly, it IS a crime, and a serious one at that, and performed against the least empowered in our society, and done in cold blood. Your most ridiculous statement is about "criminalising UK citizens for having different beliefs". They can believe whatever they like, including that it would be great if they could chop bits off their children. As long as they do not actually have bits chopped off their children.. That is the criminal act, not believing it should be done.


No-one else? I'm the only one in the UK? Wow. I didn't know.

Ah, you know all of them too. You sure know a lot of people. You should perhaps have told the NSPCC, they could then have saved themselves all the bother and expense of setting of their [url=http://www.nspcc.org.uk/news-and-views/our-news/child-protection-news/female-genital-mutilation-helpline/fgm-helpline-launched_wda96863.htmlFemale genital mutilation helpline[/urlwhich presumably has therefore yet to receive a call. In fact, these unfortunate young girls, already being born into a repressive and controling jail of religious nutjobbery, are raised as no better than slaves, their spirit is broken and this is but one part - if a major partr -of their brainwashing and having their spirit broken, and their sense of self-worth crushed.

What would you guess then motivates [url=http://www.theguardian.com/end-fgmFahma Mohamed[/url, and the 200,000+ people that have signed her Petition to end FGM?

Do you even know what lies in store for them? Did you know they often have their vaginas sewn up? That once they are married off, it is up to man to whom they are given to decide how to re-open the vagina, and apparently the majority feel that anything less than a grand forced re-opening with a penis would make them less of a man?

And you want to let this all continue "because they have different religious beliefs"? If you do, then you simply disgust me.


Thankfully, I believe no civilised person who understands the issue shares your views on this. Certainly not [url=http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2012/08/05/fgm-female-genital-mutilation-women-fight_n_1744455.html?utm_hp_ref=uk"Ardo"[/url, whose story you might learn something from.

Quote Ferocious Aardvark="Ferocious Aardvark"Why such a cynical and pessimistic view of the law? One frequent outcome of such mutual defences for assorted crimes is BOTH being convicted. I have faith in juries in general to see straight through bogus defences, and I am sure you grossly underestimate how hard it is to mount a fake defence in police questioning without tripping yourself and each other up. Then there are the conspiracy laws. At any rate, none of your comments are even the beginning of a reason not to try to prosecute.'" Do you know whether the people who push for FGM are male or female? Do you know whether the new parents go along with this or whether they are pushed into it by their more traditional parents? If you have a good knowledge of the customs in all these countries and can accurately judge who was involved in arranging it then you can begin to determine who is the guilty party. But convicting a mother of arranging the FGM of her daughter when it may have been completely against her wishes, sending her to jail and ripping her family from her is unlikely to catch on as good practice. Quote Ferocious AardvarkNo, I hold FGM to be self-evidently child abuse. Anyone who disagrees I would view as a pervert or a religious zealot.'" Is male circumcision child abuse? Do some people consider male circumcision to be MGM? I honestly don't know. I'm uncircumcised and have never given it much thought. But I've lived in the USA and in that country I believe most men are circumcised. Why the difference between the US and here? It is pretty clear that the UK and the WHO are vehemently against FGM and the choice to label it FGM rather than simply circumcision shows their stance. But labeling the parents of 1.25m children and women as child abusers is utterly ridiculous. Quote Ferocious AardvarkOh yes, in the long run far better for them to be raised in a non-religious-nutjob environment, by people who love and respect them, and don't want to get religious nutjobs to mutilate them without anaesthetic. '" We can't protect young English girls from being forced into prostitution by Pakistani gangs, but we have loving foster parents ready for young immigrant children who have just been stripped from their homes and families? Quote Ferocious AardvarkHowever the main aim in this area must surely be to identify girls at RISK of being subjected to FGM and taking steps to prevent it from happening in the first place. '" How do you propose doing that? Quote Ferocious AardvarkSadly religion is so prevalent that it is no good advocating removing children from even the most fanatical religionists, as the starting point is the impossibility of any such course. But a child who HAS BEEN mutilated? Yep, the parents do not deserve the child and it needs urgent medical help which clearly the parents have no intention of providing.'" So the NHS estimates 60,000 UK females have had this performed on them. So I'd guess that'd amount to roughly 100,000+ children who you want to forcibly remove from their home and assume responsibility for. Good luck with that. Quote Ferocious AardvarkIt's really not. Performing mutilation to genitals is very clearly abuse, and the whole point of it seems to be because the offending body parts are deemed religiously unacceptable as they are sexual organs. '" Seems? If you know why this procedure takes place then you don't need to hide behind [iseems[/i. Quote Ferocious AardvarkEasy? I never claimed any such thing. It is obviously difficult. But they should have started the prosecutions many years ago, learned from them, developed their methods and in general made it clear by actions that our society simply will not tolerate FGM. The inaction I am sure has convinced proponents of FGM that it is tolerated. They clearly feel safe.'" Just reading up on wikipedia about FGM, but from my quick scanning of the page there is no mention whatsoever of any prosecutions anywhere of parents who have had this procedure performed on their children. All the prosecutions are of the doctors or the people who performed it. So you are arguing for something that no country on earth actually does. Quote Ferocious AardvarkWe have done NOTHING though. Not one prosecution for your claimed 60,000 mutilations.'" Not actually true. www.theguardian.com/society/2014 ... rged-court It seems they go to trial in January Quote Ferocious AardvarkNo-one else? I'm the only one in the UK? Wow. I didn't know. '" So who else in the UK is saying that families should be ripped apart over this issue? How many children are prepared to report their parents over this? Quote Ferocious AardvarkAh, you know all of them too. You sure know a lot of people. You should perhaps have told the NSPCC, they could then have saved themselves all the bother and expense of setting of their [url=http://www.nspcc.org.uk/news-and-views/our-news/child-protection-news/female-genital-mutilation-helpline/fgm-helpline-launched_wda96863.htmlFemale genital mutilation helpline[/urlwhich presumably has therefore yet to receive a call. In fact, these unfortunate young girls, already being born into a repressive and controling jail of religious nutjobbery, are raised as no better than slaves, their spirit is broken and this is but one part - if a major partr -of their brainwashing and having their spirit broken, and their sense of self-worth crushed. '" I'm not pro-FGM. I don't understand it and totally accept the UK and WHOs stance on it. I just don't think your ridiculous solution of wrecking immigrant families has any merit to it. Quote Ferocious AardvarkDo you even know what lies in store for them? Did you know they often have their vaginas sewn up? That once they are married off, it is up to man to whom they are given to decide how to re-open the vagina, and apparently the majority feel that anything less than a grand forced re-opening with a penis would make them less of a man? '" What's your source for this? Quote Ferocious AardvarkAnd you want to let this all continue "because they have different religious beliefs"? If you do, then you simply disgust me. '" I don't want this to continue. I just think your solution to the problem is ridiculous. Quote Ferocious AardvarkThankfully, I believe no civilised person who understands the issue shares your views on this.'" Based upon the NHS, WHO and UN viewpoint I am against FGM. But I do think that this is the argument from one side and there seems to be no attempt whatsoever to accept there is any other point of view. I guess they just aren't civilised enough to be listened to and should just accept what we say. But my main view is that it is a massively difficult issue and that your solution is simplistic, stupid and ultimately damaging to the very people you claim to be wanting to defend.

Quote Ferocious Aardvark="Ferocious Aardvark"Why such a cynical and pessimistic view of the law? One frequent outcome of such mutual defences for assorted crimes is BOTH being convicted. I have faith in juries in general to see straight through bogus defences, and I am sure you grossly underestimate how hard it is to mount a fake defence in police questioning without tripping yourself and each other up. Then there are the conspiracy laws. At any rate, none of your comments are even the beginning of a reason not to try to prosecute.'" Do you know whether the people who push for FGM are male or female? Do you know whether the new parents go along with this or whether they are pushed into it by their more traditional parents? If you have a good knowledge of the customs in all these countries and can accurately judge who was involved in arranging it then you can begin to determine who is the guilty party. But convicting a mother of arranging the FGM of her daughter when it may have been completely against her wishes, sending her to jail and ripping her family from her is unlikely to catch on as good practice. Quote Ferocious AardvarkNo, I hold FGM to be self-evidently child abuse. Anyone who disagrees I would view as a pervert or a religious zealot.'" Is male circumcision child abuse? Do some people consider male circumcision to be MGM? I honestly don't know. I'm uncircumcised and have never given it much thought. But I've lived in the USA and in that country I believe most men are circumcised. Why the difference between the US and here? It is pretty clear that the UK and the WHO are vehemently against FGM and the choice to label it FGM rather than simply circumcision shows their stance. But labeling the parents of 1.25m children and women as child abusers is utterly ridiculous. Quote Ferocious AardvarkOh yes, in the long run far better for them to be raised in a non-religious-nutjob environment, by people who love and respect them, and don't want to get religious nutjobs to mutilate them without anaesthetic. '" We can't protect young English girls from being forced into prostitution by Pakistani gangs, but we have loving foster parents ready for young immigrant children who have just been stripped from their homes and families? Quote Ferocious AardvarkHowever the main aim in this area must surely be to identify girls at RISK of being subjected to FGM and taking steps to prevent it from happening in the first place. '" How do you propose doing that? Quote Ferocious AardvarkSadly religion is so prevalent that it is no good advocating removing children from even the most fanatical religionists, as the starting point is the impossibility of any such course. But a child who HAS BEEN mutilated? Yep, the parents do not deserve the child and it needs urgent medical help which clearly the parents have no intention of providing.'" So the NHS estimates 60,000 UK females have had this performed on them. So I'd guess that'd amount to roughly 100,000+ children who you want to forcibly remove from their home and assume responsibility for. Good luck with that. Quote Ferocious AardvarkIt's really not. Performing mutilation to genitals is very clearly abuse, and the whole point of it seems to be because the offending body parts are deemed religiously unacceptable as they are sexual organs. '" Seems? If you know why this procedure takes place then you don't need to hide behind [iseems[/i. Quote Ferocious AardvarkEasy? I never claimed any such thing. It is obviously difficult. But they should have started the prosecutions many years ago, learned from them, developed their methods and in general made it clear by actions that our society simply will not tolerate FGM. The inaction I am sure has convinced proponents of FGM that it is tolerated. They clearly feel safe.'" Just reading up on wikipedia about FGM, but from my quick scanning of the page there is no mention whatsoever of any prosecutions anywhere of parents who have had this procedure performed on their children. All the prosecutions are of the doctors or the people who performed it. So you are arguing for something that no country on earth actually does. Quote Ferocious AardvarkWe have done NOTHING though. Not one prosecution for your claimed 60,000 mutilations.'" Not actually true. www.theguardian.com/society/2014 ... rged-court It seems they go to trial in January Quote Ferocious AardvarkNo-one else? I'm the only one in the UK? Wow. I didn't know. '" So who else in the UK is saying that families should be ripped apart over this issue? How many children are prepared to report their parents over this? Quote Ferocious AardvarkAh, you know all of them too. You sure know a lot of people. You should perhaps have told the NSPCC, they could then have saved themselves all the bother and expense of setting of their [url=http://www.nspcc.org.uk/news-and-views/our-news/child-protection-news/female-genital-mutilation-helpline/fgm-helpline-launched_wda96863.htmlFemale genital mutilation helpline[/urlwhich presumably has therefore yet to receive a call. In fact, these unfortunate young girls, already being born into a repressive and controling jail of religious nutjobbery, are raised as no better than slaves, their spirit is broken and this is but one part - if a major partr -of their brainwashing and having their spirit broken, and their sense of self-worth crushed. '" I'm not pro-FGM. I don't understand it and totally accept the UK and WHOs stance on it. I just don't think your ridiculous solution of wrecking immigrant families has any merit to it. Quote Ferocious AardvarkDo you even know what lies in store for them? Did you know they often have their vaginas sewn up? That once they are married off, it is up to man to whom they are given to decide how to re-open the vagina, and apparently the majority feel that anything less than a grand forced re-opening with a penis would make them less of a man? '" What's your source for this? Quote Ferocious AardvarkAnd you want to let this all continue "because they have different religious beliefs"? If you do, then you simply disgust me. '" I don't want this to continue. I just think your solution to the problem is ridiculous. Quote Ferocious AardvarkThankfully, I believe no civilised person who understands the issue shares your views on this.'" Based upon the NHS, WHO and UN viewpoint I am against FGM. But I do think that this is the argument from one side and there seems to be no attempt whatsoever to accept there is any other point of view. I guess they just aren't civilised enough to be listened to and should just accept what we say. But my main view is that it is a massively difficult issue and that your solution is simplistic, stupid and ultimately damaging to the very people you claim to be wanting to defend.

I think they want to end FGM. I support them in that.

But what I doubt that there's many, if any, other crackpot loons who want parents jailed and families ripped apart over FGM.

I think you've answered my point very succinctly there, thank you - and unless any further evidence emerges over the following months you'll also probably find that charges of racist crimes do not appear in any court cases linked to this matter as indeed they never have done in similar cases.

In your straw man, the mother would clearly under UK law not be convicted, but don’t let that stop your ranting.


If done for purely religious reasons then, as a statement of fact not law, I would say yes, though for obvious (to most) reasons, it is a much less significant procedure medically and isn’t aimed at sexually crippling the child. You can’t sensibly compare it to the evils of FGM. It does create the risk of totally unnecessary infections and other problems but equally is a medical procedure that can be done on legitimate health grounds too, and basically the child can often get on with his life pretty much unaffected. It’s not a parallel, and the medical opinions on the outcome are[url=http://jme.bmj.com/content/30/3/259.fullequivocal[/url. There are many cases where children suffer unnecessarily or even die as a result, for example the case Goodluck Caubergs which led to the conviction for manslaughter by gross negligence of nurse Grace Adeleye who carried out the circumcision. The court heard that up to three children a month are admitted to the Royal Manchester Children's Hospital because of bleeding after home-based circumcisions. However, the POINT is, as the Law Commission found maybe 20 years ago, male circumcision for non-medical reasons is not unlawful in the UK even though it felt a law should be passed to make the position crystal clear, and as the practice is therefore not against the law, unlike FGM which is so plainly against the law, there is no sensible comparison to be drawn. As a statement of law, male circumcision is NOT child abuse as UK law presently stands and so I accept that position.


No, it shows that they know what is involved and that you clearly don’t.


It is child abuse but my concern is not with labels, just with preventing the abuse, and if too late for that, bringing those responsible to justice.


Of course we can, and are. Hopefully many lessons have been learned from the failures and inactions of the past, and increasing number of cases where the law has dealt with offenders, and there are dozens of initiatives which a second on Google would educate you about. However the fact that other types of child abuse go on seems to be a very weird argument against action to stop FGM.


Look, if a girl is at genuine risk of FGM then it follows as a civilized country and if there is no alternative, then we should and must remove her from harm’s way. If the risk goes away she can go back. I entirely reject any shortage of foster carers or care home places, if there were one, as any sort of justification for allowing girls to be mutilated.


There are many and sensible proposals and initiatives some of which I already linked to. Those who know about the subject seem to have very good ideas how to tackle it. All that is needed is the government to back and actively support them for a decent start to be made. If you can’t be bothered to read the links then a fair summary would be identifying children and communities at risk, educating them, and at the same time ensuring they also realize the criminality of these practices.


Leaving aside that very many of these are adult females of a range of ages, I don’t get your argument. Is it really that because there are lots of victims, we should just leave them to it?


Great. About time a start was made, and identifying and prosecuting the (alleged) butchers is an excellent place to begin.


I have heard this from several places. Here’s one: [urlhttp://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/yvonne-ossei/female-genital-mutilation_1_b_1822156.html[/url


As if I claimed I “have the solution”! Your conclusion that the numbers are too high so we should just leave them to it is the laissez faire equivalent of wanting it to continue, though. Your “solution” (“Well, I’m against it of course but lots do it so what can we do”) I find just totally unacceptable and alarmingly defeatist.


They, like everyone else, should obey the law of the land.


No, that is just an utterly banal stating of the obvious. As for the rest - I challenge you to answer one single question, then:

Read this, from one of my links:

Just before the procedure starts, your task is to articulate to this 7 year old girl the “other side of the argument”, and the “other point of view”, as to why you feel there is a case to be made for the procedure to go ahead.

Go on. The floor is yours.

Here's what you wrote earlier:

[iIf a girl is found on medical examination to have suffered FGM, a prosecution shuld be brought. You do not get sexually mutilated by accident and no jury would believe that it happened without the knowledge of the parents. [/i

[iOne frequent outcome of such mutual defences for assorted crimes is BOTH being convicted. I have faith in juries in general to see straight through bogus defences, and I am sure you grossly underestimate how hard it is to mount a fake defence in police questioning without tripping yourself and each other up.[/i

You have faith that the juries, and before them the police and CPS, have the ability and knowledge of these countries to be able to determine who performed this operations, when they did it and who organised them. I don't have faith that they can do that. And that's mainly why the CPS will always struggle with putting forward a prosecution, even if they were willing to prosecute the parents. Which I'm not sure they are and suspect they aren't.



And they have made the case very well in English to an English speaking audience. But is this case being made to African immigrants with limited, if any, knowledge of English?

One of the links you posted had a woman who talked with other women. They had had the procedure performed on them and suffered no ill effects and didn't understand the problem, they said that their mothers and grandmothers had also had it done. They didn't understand what the issue was.

You want to castigate them as evil child abusers because they have performed FGM on their children. But it is an English label and an English crime outlawing a practice that mainly occurs in Africa. I know that in Britain ignorance of the law is no defence, but anyone with any sense must accept that there are difficulties with educating immigrants to our country that their customs are illegal and outlawed here.



How do you determine that a girl is at risk of FGM? Unless you are proposing a ban of children returning back to their home country from England then you clearly can't.



That I don't have a problem with.

What I have a problem with is your suggesting of criminalising parents for this and taking children away from their families over this. Have you got a link of anyone else suggesting this?



No, my argument is that this is a massive difference between the cultures of the western world and the cultures of poor African and Middle East countries. IMO you're arguing that we need to go to war with these people, by throwing these child abusers in jail and taking their kids away. I'm arguing for diplomacy, for educating them and convincing them that they should abandon their practices.



See, I think this is really good education for huffpost readers, I'm sure it will play really well with readers of the Guardian as well.

But it is very much written from a British perspective for a British audience. I'm not sure there's any attempt whatsoever to even begin to address the situation from an African perspective.



I think your "solution" would be rejected by even members of the BNP as too extreme. They'd probably like your solution, but they wouldn't be brave enough to endorse it.



Which is fine if you know about the law and understand it. A little more difficult if you know three words of English and have no comprehension of what FGM is.



I've never once said that I support FGM or understand why it's performed, so I reject your ridiculous task just like I reject your ridiculous solution.

I would ask you to explain to a 7 year old girl why her loving parents are in jail for supposedly abusing her when she has no knowledge or any ill effects from a procedure that was performed when she was a baby.