Re: Kier Starmer : Sun Mar 14, 2021 11:58 am  

Mild Rover wrote: It is an interesting analysis. This what the article refers back to: https://www.ons.gov.uk/employmentandlab ... nings/2019 And it draws in turn from this: https://www.ons.gov.uk/employmentandlab ... nings/2019 A couple of points that jumped out for me are the differences between lower and higher skilled workers across the sectors. Which is probably unsurprising and reflects my own experience. This is also reflected in the mean and median proportions of public sector pay that private sector workers receive. V.similar mean but lower median, reflecting more variety in the private sector. To the point that lumping in Amazon delivery drivers and bond traders feels overly arbitrary. It is virtually impossible to get a definitive answer to the public vs private pay debate. But what is clear is that the public sector are doing a lot better than they think they are when compared to the private sector. And the gap is widening in their favour.

Mild Rover wrote: It is an interesting analysis. This what the article refers back to: https://www.ons.gov.uk/employmentandlab ... nings/2019 And it draws in turn from this: https://www.ons.gov.uk/employmentandlab ... nings/2019 A couple of points that jumped out for me are the differences between lower and higher skilled workers across the sectors. Which is probably unsurprising and reflects my own experience. This is also reflected in the mean and median proportions of public sector pay that private sector workers receive. V.similar mean but lower median, reflecting more variety in the private sector. To the point that lumping in Amazon delivery drivers and bond traders feels overly arbitrary. It is virtually impossible to get a definitive answer to the public vs private pay debate. But what is clear is that the public sector are doing a lot better than they think they are when compared to the private sector. And the gap is widening in their favour.

Re: Kier Starmer : Sun Mar 14, 2021 12:22 pm  

wotsupcas wrote:

It is virtually impossible to get a definitive answer to the public vs private pay debate. But what is clear is that the public sector are doing a lot better than they think they are when compared to the private sector. And the gap is widening in their favour.

As you say, absolutely impossible to make a simple or direct comparison.
Traditionally, working in the public sector wasn't just as well paid but, it was always seen as the safer option - less risk of redundancy and not exposed to the same pressures as the private sector
and I would say that by and large this is still the case.
You can earn more outside the public sector but, the risks are greater.

As for pay settlements, the same probably applies.
Public sector gives a level of protection against redundancies and pay settlements will usually be below the average, which means doing better than some but, not as well as others.

With regard to NHS settlements, it's all a little bit ugly.
Due to the huge numbers working in the NHS ANY pay increase costs a huge amount of cash overall but, it always will and it's crazy to say that an extra 1% will cost "X" billion
It can and never will be any different and the reality is that if we need to have public sector services, we should be prepared to pay for them - end of story.

[Mild Rover]

Re: Kier Starmer : Sun Mar 14, 2021 1:36 pm  

wrencat1873 wrote:

As you say, absolutely impossible to make a simple or direct comparison.
Traditionally, working in the public sector wasn't just as well paid but, it was always seen as the safer option - less risk of redundancy and not exposed to the same pressures as the private sector
and I would say that by and large this is still the case.
You can earn more outside the public sector but, the risks are greater.

As for pay settlements, the same probably applies.
Public sector gives a level of protection against redundancies and pay settlements will usually be below the average, which means doing better than some but, not as well as others.

With regard to NHS settlements, it's all a little bit ugly.
Due to the huge numbers working in the NHS ANY pay increase costs a huge amount of cash overall but, it always will and it's crazy to say that an extra 1% will cost "X" billion
It can and never will be any different and the reality is that if we need to have public sector services, we should be prepared to pay for them - end of story.

Absolutely, and progressive taxation can be used to ensure that those least well remunerated in the private sector who also often face the most problems with job insecurity and poor working conditions aren’t asked to bear an unrealistic share of the burden.

Re: Kier Starmer : Mon Mar 15, 2021 5:29 pm  

wrencat1873 wrote:

As you say, absolutely impossible to make a simple or direct comparison.
Traditionally, working in the public sector wasn't just as well paid but, it was always seen as the safer option - less risk of redundancy and not exposed to the same pressures as the private sector
and I would say that by and large this is still the case.
You can earn more outside the public sector but, the risks are greater.

As for pay settlements, the same probably applies.
Public sector gives a level of protection against redundancies and pay settlements will usually be below the average, which means doing better than some but, not as well as others.

With regard to NHS settlements, it's all a little bit ugly.
Due to the huge numbers working in the NHS ANY pay increase costs a huge amount of cash overall but, it always will and it's crazy to say that an extra 1% will cost "X" billion
It can and never will be any different and the reality is that if we need to have public sector services, we should be prepared to pay for them - end of story.

A very good post - but the idea that private sector is way ahead of the public sector simply doesn't ring true - is a simple admin job any better paid in the private sector in fact its probably the opposite. Are their head's of council's that earn what a CEO of huge private business no but as the poster mentioned the private sector risks are huge,

Re: Kier Starmer : Mon Mar 15, 2021 7:09 pm  

Zoo Zoo Boom wrote:

the private sector risks are huge,

LOL

What you really mean is the Multi year rolling contracts and Golden Handshakes for repeated abject failure are Huge.

Re: Kier Starmer : Mon Mar 15, 2021 7:17 pm  

I'd say public sector workers on the lower end of the pay structure will earn more than their private sector counterparts as most local authorities adopt the recommended national living wage (£9.50) as their minimum wage, as opposed to the national minimum wage, so cleaners, building attendants, mail room workers etc, probably are paid better than private sector counter parts. However, teachers, nurses, engineers, solicitors, and directors/CEOs, i.e. jobs that require years of higher education and training are most certainly paid more in the private sector. So looking at the overall average isn't necessarily going to give you the full picture.

Re: Kier Starmer : Tue Mar 16, 2021 8:59 am  

Superblue wrote:

LOL

What you really mean is the Multi year rolling contracts and Golden Handshakes for repeated abject failure are Huge.

Don't forget they need one bad year and they are out of work and might not get another job despite years of training/experience - there are significant risks to having the top job.

Despite having the worst death rate in the EU and amongst the worst in the world none of the boss people in the NHS will be at risk in fact everybody is thinking the opposite - in the commercial world performance like would see a CEO out of a job

Re: Kier Starmer : Tue Mar 16, 2021 10:03 am  

Zoo Zoo Boom wrote:

A very good post - but the idea that private sector is way ahead of the public sector simply doesn't ring true - is a simple admin job any better paid in the private sector in fact its probably the opposite. Are their head's of council's that earn what a CEO of huge private business no but as the poster mentioned the private sector risks are huge,

You must have missed this:

"You can earn more outside the public sector but, the risks are greater."

Local government was always reasonably paid but, never the best but, back in the day, the pensions were among the best available.
The non contributory final salary schemes were unbelievable by todays standards, not to mention the early retirement in the Police, Fire service etc.
These benefits are not open to the average working man/woman in the private sector, unless of course, it's your business.

Re: Kier Starmer : Tue Mar 16, 2021 10:06 am  

Jack Burton wrote:

I'd say public sector workers on the lower end of the pay structure will earn more than their private sector counterparts as most local authorities adopt the recommended national living wage (£9.50) as their minimum wage, as opposed to the national minimum wage, so cleaners, building attendants, mail room workers etc, probably are paid better than private sector counter parts. However, teachers, nurses, engineers, solicitors, and directors/CEOs, i.e. jobs that require years of higher education and training are most certainly paid more in the private sector. So looking at the overall average isn't necessarily going to give you the full picture.

Your last comment assumes those with degree's actually end up in a job which makes use of them.
In itself, degree is no guarantee of higher pay, you still need to land a position where the reward takes account of your qualification and then be able to actually do the job.

Re: Kier Starmer : Thu Apr 15, 2021 9:17 pm  

A third of Labour supporters feel that Starmer is doing an awful job. Let that sink in. A third. That is embarassing!