[Mild Rover]

Re: Brexit Anyone ? (part 3) : Fri Mar 01, 2019 12:11 pm  

POSTL wrote:

I say it again its just a shame on such an important issue that the two nations can not come to an agreement themselves.

It’s a weird situation, in that everybody wants to get to the same place, and the argument is around the process and level of control over it. So, although it is very important issue, I don’t think it should be a big problem. It’s just that the ERG and DUP hold the balance of power in the UK. I can understand the DUP’s position, even if I disagree with it. But the ERG can get stuffed for me - they’ve got a really pretty hard Brexit on the table and still they’re quibbling.

As for the two nations coming to an agreement, is the thought there that the EU are preventing Ireland from giving way on this? From a UK perspective, it’d obviously strengthen our hand to negotiate directly with one smaller country. But for Ireland, the EU’s support is valuable in getting their preferred ordering of the process.

Re: Brexit Anyone ? (part 3) : Fri Mar 01, 2019 12:15 pm  

POSTL wrote:

Does the lack of trust not stem from the EU in requiring the backstop in the first place

Would you trust the British government??!!

Re: Brexit Anyone ? (part 3) : Fri Mar 01, 2019 12:29 pm  

King Street Cat wrote:

Would you trust the British government??!!

I don't trust any politician from any party mate, do you trust the EU bureaucrats ???.

Re: Brexit Anyone ? (part 3) : Fri Mar 01, 2019 12:54 pm  

Mild Rover wrote:

It’s a weird situation, in that everybody wants to get to the same place, and the argument is around the process and level of control over it. So, although it is very important issue, I don’t think it should be a big problem. It’s just that the ERG and DUP hold the balance of power in the UK. I can understand the DUP’s position, even if I disagree with it. But the ERG can get stuffed for me - they’ve got a really pretty hard Brexit on the table and still they’re quibbling.

As for the two nations coming to an agreement, is the thought there that the EU are preventing Ireland from giving way on this? From a UK perspective, it’d obviously strengthen our hand to negotiate directly with one smaller country. But for Ireland, the EU’s support is valuable in getting their preferred ordering of the process.

Don't forget the ERG are a small group of Tory back benchers led by Reece Mogg if both main parties vote for the deal then they will become rather insignificant, in an interview with Nadine Dorres (think that's her name ) from the ERG she seemed quite positive if the backstop can be improved (time will tell), however, having said that, Mays deal as it is was totally blown out of the water by all sides in record numbers, so the politicians on both sides must know something I don't. It didn't seem so bad to me, but like most of us I only got the snippets revealed on the tv. My worry is that when the next vote comes on her hopefully revised deal that party politics might over ride what is imo best for the country in coming out with a decent deal.

With regards the DUP, I did have sympathy with their position even though I'm not a lover of the party, they felt that there would be a border in the Irish Sea, that they would have different rules than the rest of the UK with no agreed end date.

[Mild Rover]

Re: Brexit Anyone ? (part 3) : Fri Mar 01, 2019 1:35 pm  

POSTL wrote:

Don't forget the ERG are a small group of Tory back benchers led by Reece Mogg if both main parties vote for the deal then they will become rather insignificant, in an interview with Nadine Dorres (think that's her name ) from the ERG she seemed quite positive if the backstop can be improved (time will tell), however, having said that, Mays deal as it is was totally blown out of the water by all sides in record numbers, so the politicians on both sides must know something I don't. It didn't seem so bad to me, but like most of us I only got the snippets revealed on the tv. My worry is that when the next vote comes on her hopefully revised deal that party politics might over ride what is imo best for the country in coming out with a decent deal.

With regards the DUP, I did have sympathy with their position even though I'm not a lover of the party, they felt that there would be a border in the Irish Sea, that they would have different rules than the rest of the UK with no agreed end date.

Yeah, I think that reflects May’s bind. She was strongly incentivised to tailor her deal to appeal to the ERG to hold her party together. If they say no, the only reasons Labour MPs could have for voting for a deal that reflects most of their priorities much less well are:
1. Deals similar to that struck with the DUP (ie cash for constituencies, in return for their MP’s votes)
2. Desperation as calamity arrives - ie the national interest.

She’s done a little bit of sounding out on the former, but it’s not a good look and Labour MPs are even less likely to believe her promises than the ERG.

The second is why she’s kept no deal hanging over us all like the sword of Damocles.

It’s like one of those games psychologists sometimes construct so demonstrate irrational behaviours or misaligned incentives. With the perversity of the ERG moving it from difficult to unwinable.

It’s March now! We leave this month! Maybe. Don’t want to commit to anything too soon. Not while those others might chicken out. Carry on Brexit, innit?

Re: Brexit Anyone ? (part 3) : Fri Mar 01, 2019 2:01 pm  

POSTL wrote:

With regards the DUP, I did have sympathy with their position even though I'm not a lover of the party, they felt that there would be a border in the Irish Sea, that they would have different rules than the rest of the UK with no agreed end date.

They already have different rules. They have their medieval laws on abortion & same-sex marriage, & there are already checks on cattle arriving in NI from the mainland UK. Hypocritical, bigoted, homophobic, climate change denying, misogynistic scum.

Re: Brexit Anyone ? (part 3) : Fri Mar 01, 2019 2:08 pm  

Mild Rover wrote:

Yeah, I think that reflects May’s bind. She was strongly incentivised to tailor her deal to appeal to the ERG to hold her party together. If they say no, the only reasons Labour MPs could have for voting for a deal that reflects most of their priorities much less well are:
1. Deals similar to that struck with the DUP (ie cash for constituencies, in return for their MP’s votes)
2. Desperation as calamity arrives - ie the national interest.

She’s done a little bit of sounding out on the former, but it’s not a good look and Labour MPs are even less likely to believe her promises than the ERG.

The second is why she’s kept no deal hanging over us all like the sword of Damocles.

It’s like one of those games psychologists sometimes construct so demonstrate irrational behaviours or misaligned incentives. With the perversity of the ERG moving it from difficult to unwinable.

It’s March now! We leave this month! Maybe. Don’t want to commit to anything too soon. Not while those others might chicken out. Carry on Brexit, innit?

It wasn't just the ERG in my opinion, it was the way May went about it with this gung ho attitude, which caused the ERG on one side and Anna Sourpuss's group on the other and she managed to appease neither with her deal as well as alienating all the other parties. She had to be taken to court to enable a meaningful vote in the commons, which for me was so unbelievably undemocratic. I just wished with this being such a massive decision for this country why we couldn't have entered the negotiations as a cross party group of both Tory & Labour.

I still don't think no deal should be taken off the table just as a bargaining tool, yes as has been reported we will be much worse off than the EU as a whole but most if not all the other 27 will be worse off to differing degrees. The country that will be the most worst off apart from us are our nearest and dearest the Irish as their economy is linked to ours, we never gave them a loan when the euro crashed out of the goodness our hearts. the main sticking point we are led to believe is the backstop as we have discussed.

It may be a stupid analogy but we have Nuclear Weapons, do we want to use them hell no, would we be worse off if we did hell yes. Hopefully just an insurance as the no deal is now. I know that's a bit extreme but the only one I could think of at short notice, so don't shoot me down please

[Bullseye]

Re: Brexit Anyone ? (part 3) : Fri Mar 01, 2019 3:06 pm  

We’re back to the “do what I want or I’ll jump off this cliff” method of negotiating. Colleagues overseas think we’ve all gone nuts.

Re: Brexit Anyone ? (part 3) : Fri Mar 01, 2019 3:38 pm  

Bullseye wrote:

We’re back to the “do what I want or I’ll jump off this cliff” method of negotiating. Colleagues overseas think we’ve all gone nuts.

Nutty Brits, Nothing new there then

Re: Brexit Anyone ? (part 3) : Fri Mar 01, 2019 3:43 pm  

tigertot wrote:

They already have different rules. They have their medieval laws on abortion & same-sex marriage, & there are already checks on cattle arriving in NI from the mainland UK. Hypocritical, bigoted, homophobic, climate change denying, misogynistic scum.

Don't hold back mate just come out and say it . Wow you really don't like them do you but you have highlighted some of the reasons why I said I don't like the party.