[Durham Giant]

anti semitic or anti Zionist : Tue Jan 29, 2013 11:00 am  

Seems any criticism of Israeli policy towards the Palestinians and you are now accused of being anti semitic. What is really sad is that those who are accused then seem to be forced to publicly apologise for daring to criticise Israeli policy in the middle east. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-21239917 People really need to stand up to this bullying which prevents fair political comment and debate. Here is a link the Gerald Scarfe cartoon which was slammed http://www.jpost.com/HttpHandlers/ShowI ... ?ID=212363 Here is the link where a Liberal MP was criticised ( what he said was probably the first decent thing i have heard a lib dem say for two years). http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leeds-21240036

Seems any criticism of Israeli policy towards the Palestinians and you are now accused of being anti semitic. What is really sad is that those who are accused then seem to be forced to publicly apologise for daring to criticise Israeli policy in the middle east. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-21239917 People really need to stand up to this bullying which prevents fair political comment and debate. Here is a link the Gerald Scarfe cartoon which was slammed http://www.jpost.com/HttpHandlers/ShowI ... ?ID=212363 Here is the link where a Liberal MP was criticised ( what he said was probably the first decent thing i have heard a lib dem say for two years). http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leeds-21240036

Re: anti semitic or anti Zionist : Tue Jan 29, 2013 11:12 am  

Durham Giant wrote: Seems any criticism of Israeli policy towards the Palestinians and you are now accused of being anti semitic. What is really sad is that those who are accused then seem to be forced to publicly apologise for daring to criticise Israeli policy in the middle east. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-21239917 People really need to stand up to this bullying which prevents fair political comment and debate. Here is a link the Gerald Scarfe cartoon which was slammed http://www.jpost.com/HttpHandlers/ShowI ... ?ID=212363 Here is the link where a Liberal MP was criticised ( what he said was probably the first decent thing i have heard a lib dem say for two years). http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leeds-21240036 People need to stand up to all types of political bullying.

Durham Giant wrote: Seems any criticism of Israeli policy towards the Palestinians and you are now accused of being anti semitic. What is really sad is that those who are accused then seem to be forced to publicly apologise for daring to criticise Israeli policy in the middle east. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-21239917 People really need to stand up to this bullying which prevents fair political comment and debate. Here is a link the Gerald Scarfe cartoon which was slammed http://www.jpost.com/HttpHandlers/ShowI ... ?ID=212363 Here is the link where a Liberal MP was criticised ( what he said was probably the first decent thing i have heard a lib dem say for two years). http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leeds-21240036 People need to stand up to all types of political bullying.

Re: anti semitic or anti Zionist : Tue Jan 29, 2013 11:14 am  

Durham Giant wrote:

Seems any criticism of Israeli policy towards the Palestinians and you are now accused of being anti semitic ...

Hardly just "now". This has been a method, among arch-Zionists of countering criticism of the behaviour of the state of Israel for years.

In these two cases, the claims are even more desperate than usual.

Mind, good to see Murdoch caving straight in to it – mind, as a right-wing religious nut himself, he probably sides with the Zionists. And of course, there are a lot of Christian Zionists over in the US these days that he won't want to upset either.

Re: anti semitic or anti Zionist : Tue Jan 29, 2013 11:19 am  

Oh good another chance for you to prattle on in support of terrorists and how brave they are.

And another chance for people to say anti-semitic things and then complain that you ‘cant say anything these days without being accused of being anti-semitic’

how boring.

The cartoon is offensive, how do I know? Because it offended people.

If the Sunday times was happy to offend people then it should stand by it. Its pretty clear that that wasn’t their intention and as such they have apologised for not being careful in how they communicated the point. That is fine, it is right and it is a sign of a healthy democracy.

The Sunday times was and is free to print offensive things, as we have seen, people are and will be free to be offended by them, This is a good thing, this is how free speech works. You are free to make these comments and draw these pictures, and people are free to judge you on your words and communications. Free speech works both ways, its not only your right to criticise the other side, but their right to criticise you.

Get over it, get over yourself. If you don’t want to be labelled an anti-semite, don’t do things which could be construed as anti-semitic. If you dont believe what you are saying to be anti-semitic then stand by it, but it is pathetic to argue people shouldn’t be offended by it, or express their offence because that would be you trying to shut down their argument by claiming they are trying to shut down, it is the height of hypocrisy.

Re: anti semitic or anti Zionist : Tue Jan 29, 2013 11:28 am  

SmokeyTA wrote:

Oh good another chance for you to prattle on in support of terrorists and how brave they are...

Or: another opportunity for you to show off your nationalistic, neo-fascist credentials by getting in quickly to pretend that criticism is a synonym for bigotry.

SmokeyTA wrote:

The cartoon is offensive, how do I know? Because it offended people...

By which logic, you're offensive simply if I say that I'm offended by you.

Re: anti semitic or anti Zionist : Tue Jan 29, 2013 11:38 am  

Mintball wrote:

Or: another opportunity for you to show off your nationalistic, neo-fascist credentials by getting in quickly to pretend criticism equals bigotry.

I haven’t accused anyone of bigotry or anything else other than the specific accusation I made against one poster who has defended terrorists and claimed they are brave. This is you, doing exactly what you have accused people of doing in relation to the cartoon. You have taken a massively hypocritical standpoint.

By which logic, you're offensive simply if I say that I'm offended by you.

And that is fine, what is offensive to one person isn’t to another. If you want think I am offensive then that is your prerogative, im not going to tell you that you are wrong. But frankly, in this context, I don’t mind, I think you have taken a massively hypocritical standpoint on this specific issue, and I find your previous posts on the wider middle east issue where you have needed to ‘pick a side’ ignoring pretty much all nuance aswell as downplaying any Palestinian/Arab aggression wrong. Because we have two, such clearly opposed standpoints I would expect you would probably find some of it offensive and there is no problem with that.

However had I worded something which left room for people to misinterpret my intention, of if I had worded something which read slightly different to what I intended, and that led to offence by invoking damaging and hurtful stereotypes then I probably would apologise.

Re: anti semitic or anti Zionist : Tue Jan 29, 2013 12:01 pm  

SmokeyTA wrote:

I haven’t accused anyone of bigotry or anything else other than the specific accusation I made against one poster who has defended terrorists and claimed they are brave. This is you, doing exactly what you have accused people of doing in relation to the cartoon. You have taken a massively hypocritical standpoint...

No. You just leapt in to help deflect from the issue in the OP – even though nobody had mentioned 'terrorists' and even though nobody had posted anything that was anti-semitic.

You have also made it clear that the whole topic is, according to you, "boring" ~yawn~

In other words, criticism of policies designed to steal land and, therefore, get rid of the people who now live and work on it, are "boring".

SmokeyTA wrote:

However had I worded something which left room for people to misinterpret my intention, of if I had worded something which read slightly different to what I intended, and that led to offence by invoking damaging and hurtful stereotypes then I probably would apologise.

No. It's okay. You wish to deflect criticism of the state of Israel by siding with those who say that they are 'offended' by criticism of the state of Israel.

That's entirely your decision.

The fact that this exact same method of attempting to deflect criticism has been used for years is obviously quite beside the point. It's sad that you appear so readily to have fallen for this same approach.

Re: anti semitic or anti Zionist : Tue Jan 29, 2013 12:07 pm  

Actually, rather than start a new thread: Israel's racist policy to stop Ethiopian Jews breeding by giving them contraceptives without consent revealed.

Actually, rather than start a new thread: Israel's racist policy to stop Ethiopian Jews breeding by giving them contraceptives without consent revealed.

Re: anti semitic or anti Zionist : Tue Jan 29, 2013 12:33 pm  

Mintball wrote:

No. You just leapt in to help deflect from the issue in the OP – even though nobody had mentioned 'terrorists' and even though nobody had posted anything that was anti-semitic.

I didn’t deflect anything, it was prediction of what this thread will become. Like most threads which said poster posts on with regards to Israel.

You have also made it clear that the whole topic is, according to you, "boring" ~yawn~

Not the whole topic, but one which will descend in to the type of nonsense the last isreal related thread did. That would be boring.

In other words, criticism of policies designed to steal land and, therefore, get rid of the people who now live and work on it, are "boring".

That is a lovely strawman. Maybe a farmer can use it. I cant.

No. It's okay. You wish to deflect criticism of the state of Israel by siding with those who say that they are 'offended' by criticism of the state of Israel.

I have no problem with anyone criticising anything they like.

I do think people, like yourself, who want to be able to criticise what they want, but see anyone judging them for their standpoints as shutting down the debate, as huge hypocrites. You could start spouting Mein Kampf if you want, I wouldn’t try and stop you, but I would make my judgement of you for your decision to do so.
Criticise the state of Israel all you want, it’s a free country, just don’t think that because you want to criticise Israel and put it in pretty strong terms that makes you are immune from criticism yourself and anyone who does criticise you for doing so, or believes some or all of what you are saying is anti-semitic or just generally offensive only feels that way or would only say that to shut down your debate.

That's entirely your decision.

The fact that this exact same method of attempting to deflect criticism has been used for years is obviously quite beside the point. It's sad that you appear so readily to have fallen for this same approach.

And you are trying to do exactly the same thing, by not addressing the criticism of the cartoon or the statements on their own merits, but as part of an attempt to shut down the debate.

It isn’t me who has ‘fallen so readily’ for it. I haven’t forwarded any opinion on whether I think it is anti-semitic or not. It is you who has simply fallen for the other side of the coin, where any claim of anti-semitism is a defence of Israel also a tactic used for years.

Re: anti semitic or anti Zionist : Tue Jan 29, 2013 12:38 pm  

Mintball wrote: Actually, rather than start a new thread: Israel's racist policy to stop Ethiopian Jews breeding by giving them contraceptives without consent revealed. And my prediction comes true. Had Dally posted a link to the daily, daily mail muslim threat nonsense on a thread about islamophobia you would have jumped down his throat with accusations of racism and xenophobia quicker than you could say ‘hitlers favourite newspaper’.

Mintball wrote: Actually, rather than start a new thread: Israel's racist policy to stop Ethiopian Jews breeding by giving them contraceptives without consent revealed. And my prediction comes true. Had Dally posted a link to the daily, daily mail muslim threat nonsense on a thread about islamophobia you would have jumped down his throat with accusations of racism and xenophobia quicker than you could say ‘hitlers favourite newspaper’.