[Bullseye]

Re: Brexit Anyone? (part 4) : Thu Oct 10, 2019 8:33 am  

King Street Cat wrote:

The big problem is that Brexit still means so many different outcomes for so many different people as an end result, even after 3 years of fantasy hitting reality.

Picture Brexit as a 30cm ruler. On the far left of the ruler, at 0cm, sits the far left, who see Brexit (or Lexit) as a way of turning the UK into a socialist utopia. On the far right of the ruler, at 30cm, sits the far right, who see Brexit as a way to shut down immigration, close borders, and turn the UK into a capitalist sweat shop. Then at every cm point towards the 15cm point in the middle, you have various other viewpoints, ranging from left leaning socialism, community projects and state ownership, to right leaning corporatism, privatisation, deregulation and low tax. A lot of people are going to be mightily disappointed. Do you think either side are just going to roll over and accept something so extremely at odds to their own views?

Maybe we need to concentrate on the views of the people who see themselves between 13cm and 17cm on the ruler? Presumably, these are the people who have weighed up both extreme ends of the argument, and have distilled them into a possible solution to this charade.

Far too sensible.

[Mild Rover]

Re: Brexit Anyone? (part 4) : Thu Oct 10, 2019 9:20 am  

King Street Cat wrote:

The big problem is that Brexit still means so many different outcomes for so many different people as an end result, even after 3 years of fantasy hitting reality.

Picture Brexit as a 30cm ruler. On the far left of the ruler, at 0cm, sits the far left, who see Brexit (or Lexit) as a way of turning the UK into a socialist utopia. On the far right of the ruler, at 30cm, sits the far right, who see Brexit as a way to shut down immigration, close borders, and turn the UK into a capitalist sweat shop. Then at every cm point towards the 15cm point in the middle, you have various other viewpoints, ranging from left leaning socialism, community projects and state ownership, to right leaning corporatism, privatisation, deregulation and low tax. A lot of people are going to be mightily disappointed. Do you think either side are just going to roll over and accept something so extremely at odds to their own views?

Maybe we need to concentrate on the views of the people who see themselves between 13cm and 17cm on the ruler? Presumably, these are the people who have weighed up both extreme ends of the argument, and have distilled them into a possible solution to this charade.

It’s good metaphor, but I wonder how many people are left in the 13 to 17cm range, who are eager to have poop thrown at them from the diehards at either end of the ruler. Also seeing yourself as at 13 to 17, doesn’t mean you are - I think a lot of us live in political bubbles, a bit. This is a remain/soft-Brexit leaning thread, i think it is fair to say, but it does benefit from some diversity of opinion.

I think the whole thing has become deeply debilitating for the country, and tiring. I’d wave through May’s deal now, if I could (on condition I could complain about it later). The problem is that those at the ends of the ruler are most passionate about this topic and therefore have the most energy left to keeping pushing their case.

Re: Brexit Anyone? (part 4) : Thu Oct 10, 2019 10:03 am  

King Street Cat wrote:

The big problem is that Brexit still means so many different outcomes for so many different people as an end result, even after 3 years of fantasy hitting reality.

Picture Brexit as a 30cm ruler. On the far left of the ruler, at 0cm, sits the far left, who see Brexit (or Lexit) as a way of turning the UK into a socialist utopia. On the far right of the ruler, at 30cm, sits the far right, who see Brexit as a way to shut down immigration, close borders, and turn the UK into a capitalist sweat shop. Then at every cm point towards the 15cm point in the middle, you have various other viewpoints, ranging from left leaning socialism, community projects and state ownership, to right leaning corporatism, privatisation, deregulation and low tax. A lot of people are going to be mightily disappointed. Do you think either side are just going to roll over and accept something so extremely at odds to their own views?

Maybe we need to concentrate on the views of the people who see themselves between 13cm and 17cm on the ruler? Presumably, these are the people who have weighed up both extreme ends of the argument, and have distilled them into a possible solution to this charade.

What I find interesting in relation to your metaphor is that most of the key players in Europe, who i would place at 0cm, are from the (relatively mildly) right-wing Liberal/Christian Democrat side of politics. Quite opposed to a socialist utopia.

Re: Brexit Anyone? (part 4) : Thu Oct 10, 2019 10:57 am  

King Street Cat wrote:

The big problem is that Brexit still means so many different outcomes for so many different people as an end result, even after 3 years of fantasy hitting reality.

Picture Brexit as a 30cm ruler. On the far left of the ruler, at 0cm, sits the far left, who see Brexit (or Lexit) as a way of turning the UK into a socialist utopia. On the far right of the ruler, at 30cm, sits the far right, who see Brexit as a way to shut down immigration, close borders, and turn the UK into a capitalist sweat shop. Then at every cm point towards the 15cm point in the middle, you have various other viewpoints, ranging from left leaning socialism, community projects and state ownership, to right leaning corporatism, privatisation, deregulation and low tax. A lot of people are going to be mightily disappointed. Do you think either side are just going to roll over and accept something so extremely at odds to their own views?

Maybe we need to concentrate on the views of the people who see themselves between 13cm and 17cm on the ruler? Presumably, these are the people who have weighed up both extreme ends of the argument, and have distilled them into a possible solution to this charade.

Excellent post.
However, the middle ground (13 - 17cm) would have been a customs union of sorts, which would be seen by Farage & Co as not having Brexit at all.
The longer that time goes on, without a deal, the more entrenched that many peoples views have become, making concessions almost impossible.
Getting back to your ruler analogy and with the referendum result almost split 50/50, where on earth has the hand of conciliation and reason been for the last 3 years ?
As I say, both sides are further away from agreement now, than at any point during the last 3 years.

Re: Brexit Anyone? (part 4) : Thu Oct 10, 2019 10:04 pm  

The Ghost of '99 wrote:

It's not the opposition's responsibility to enact the government's policies. A typical denial of responsibility by Brexiteers.
If the Tories had wanted opposition support they should have negotiated a less Tory Brexit and incorporated some of Labour's red lines. It's not like Corbyn is a huge fan of the EU, it would have been pretty easy to get a bipartisan bill into the House. But the Tories put party over country yet again - the root cause of why we're in this huge mess in the first place.

Good of you to reiterate the point for me.

Labour MPs voted for the referendum. Pretty much every Labour MP promised to honour and response the result. Labour MPs voted for A50. About 150 Labour MPs represent Leave constituencies. Yet you feel they have no responsibility to see Brexit through? The government did not decide to leave the EU, it was decided by democratic process. And guess what, Labour want to ignore it.

The truth is, opposition MPs don't want to see Brexit through because most are Remainers and simply cannot accept the result. You can twist it any way you like but that is the core of the issue.

BTW, as I'm sure you know, Labour's red lines are simply impossible to achieve and are nothing more than a PR piece, while - like it or not - May's red lines were defined around the main reasons people voted to leave. They may sound 'hard' to Europhile ears but they reflect the wishes of the Leave electorate.

Re: Brexit Anyone? (part 4) : Thu Oct 10, 2019 10:52 pm  

Cronus wrote:

Good of you to reiterate the point for me.

Labour MPs voted for the referendum. Pretty much every Labour MP promised to honour and response the result. Labour MPs voted for A50. About 150 Labour MPs represent Leave constituencies. Yet you feel they have no responsibility to see Brexit through? The government did not decide to leave the EU, it was decided by democratic process. And guess what, Labour want to ignore it.

The truth is, opposition MPs don't want to see Brexit through because most are Remainers and simply cannot accept the result. You can twist it any way you like but that is the core of the issue.

Put a non-ideologically Tory deal in front of the Commons and it should pass. The Tories have been engineering one which suits them ideologically but that was never going to fly once they lost their majority.

I've no sympathy for the Labour party and have never voted for them but the idea they should vote for the quite extreme versions of Brexit May put before the House is laughable.

Re: Brexit Anyone? (part 4) : Thu Oct 10, 2019 10:54 pm  

The Ghost of '99 wrote:

Put a non-ideologically Tory deal in front of the Commons and it should pass. The Tories have been engineering one which suits them ideologically but that was never going to fly once they lost their majority.

Are you Lisa Nandy?

[Mild Rover]

Re: Brexit Anyone? (part 4) : Fri Oct 11, 2019 7:29 am  

Cronus wrote:

May's red lines were defined around the main reasons people voted to leave. They may sound 'hard' to Europhile ears but they reflect the wishes of the Leave electorate.

It’s an interesting point, actually. Do you think most Brexit-voters favoured May’s deal? There’s probably polling somewhere. My guess would be ‘yes’, although Farage describes it now as the ‘worst deal in history’ and ‘worse than remain’.

Anyway, even after the vote, deciding the next steps should reflect the wishes of the whole electorate, for two reasons. The first is that voting for the losing side doesn’t permanently disenfranchise people or render their views irrelevant. The second is that with such a narrow margin of victory, effectively telling 48% of voters to shut up and accept what the Brexiteers want could only work if the brexiteers had a very, very clearly defined single vision and agreed priorities, great discipline and a degree of pragmatism in the face of inevitable challenges in navigating the divorce process.

Re: Brexit Anyone? (part 4) : Fri Oct 11, 2019 11:40 am  

Mild Rover wrote:

It’s an interesting point, actually. Do you think most Brexit-voters favoured May’s deal? There’s probably polling somewhere. My guess would be ‘yes’, although Farage describes it now as the ‘worst deal in history’ and ‘worse than remain’.

Anyway, even after the vote, deciding the next steps should reflect the wishes of the whole electorate, for two reasons. The first is that voting for the losing side doesn’t permanently disenfranchise people or render their views irrelevant. The second is that with such a narrow margin of victory, effectively telling 48% of voters to shut up and accept what the Brexiteers want could only work if the brexiteers had a very, very clearly defined single vision and agreed priorities, great discipline and a degree of pragmatism in the face of inevitable challenges in navigating the divorce process.

Could we reverse a General Election result - no. It is as simple as that.

Re: Brexit Anyone? (part 4) : Fri Oct 11, 2019 11:46 am  

IR80 wrote:

Could we reverse a General Election result - no. It is as simple as that.

Yes, at the next election. HTH.