Re: Brexit Anyone? (part 4) : Wed Oct 02, 2019 3:59 pm  

wrencat1873 wrote: I dont think that calling someone in climate change denial, ignorant, is an insult. It's actually way more embarrassing that someone could believe that there isn't a problem. Why, there are many examples of cyclical weather and climate trends over millennia, the planet is adjusting. https://www.theguardian.com/environment ... hemisphere one example of quite a few Climate is Changing, that is without question, the causation/correlation of human behavious is unproven, the amount of plastics in the sea is an issue, but not an unsurmountable one. But anyway, Leaving Europe...

wrencat1873 wrote: I dont think that calling someone in climate change denial, ignorant, is an insult. It's actually way more embarrassing that someone could believe that there isn't a problem. Why, there are many examples of cyclical weather and climate trends over millennia, the planet is adjusting. https://www.theguardian.com/environment ... hemisphere one example of quite a few Climate is Changing, that is without question, the causation/correlation of human behavious is unproven, the amount of plastics in the sea is an issue, but not an unsurmountable one. But anyway, Leaving Europe...

Re: Brexit Anyone? (part 4) : Wed Oct 02, 2019 4:14 pm  

IR80 wrote: Why, there are many examples of cyclical weather and climate trends over millennia, the planet is adjusting. https://www.theguardian.com/environment ... hemisphere one example of quite a few Climare is Changing, that is without question, the causation/correlation is unproven. How long do you think the population should actually wait before reducing it's carbon emissions or, should we just carry on as we are and let nature take it's course ? There is absolutely no doubt that the human species is destroying the planet, the disagreement is to just what timescale you put on the tipping point. If the scientists are right, which I accept isn't always 100% of the time, there will be significant problems before the end of the century for some parts of the planet. It wont affect me, as I will be in "the next life" but, for my kids and their offspring, do you not think we should ALL act now, just in case.

IR80 wrote: Why, there are many examples of cyclical weather and climate trends over millennia, the planet is adjusting. https://www.theguardian.com/environment ... hemisphere one example of quite a few Climare is Changing, that is without question, the causation/correlation is unproven. How long do you think the population should actually wait before reducing it's carbon emissions or, should we just carry on as we are and let nature take it's course ? There is absolutely no doubt that the human species is destroying the planet, the disagreement is to just what timescale you put on the tipping point. If the scientists are right, which I accept isn't always 100% of the time, there will be significant problems before the end of the century for some parts of the planet. It wont affect me, as I will be in "the next life" but, for my kids and their offspring, do you not think we should ALL act now, just in case.

Re: Brexit Anyone? (part 4) : Wed Oct 02, 2019 4:20 pm  

wrencat1873 wrote:

How long do you think the population should actually wait before reducing it's carbon emissions or, should we just carry on as we are and let nature take it's course ?
There is absolutely no doubt that the human species is destroying the planet, the disagreement is to just what timescale you put on the tipping point.
If the scientists are right, which I accept isn't always 100% of the time, there will be significant problems before the end of the century for some parts of the planet.
It wont affect me, as I will be in "the next life" but, for my kids and their offspring, do you not think we should ALL act now, just in case.

Can you show me unequivocal evidence that the planet is being "destroyed"

Re: Brexit Anyone? (part 4) : Wed Oct 02, 2019 4:20 pm  

wrencat1873 wrote:

How long do you think the population should actually wait before reducing it's carbon emissions or, should we just carry on as we are and let nature take it's course ?
There is absolutely no doubt that the human species is destroying the planet, the disagreement is to just what timescale you put on the tipping point.
If the scientists are right, which I accept isn't always 100% of the time, there will be significant problems before the end of the century for some parts of the planet.
It wont affect me, as I will be in "the next life" but, for my kids and their offspring, do you not think we should ALL act now, just in case.

Can you show me unequivocal evidence that the planet is being "destroyed"

Re: Brexit Anyone? (part 4) : Wed Oct 02, 2019 5:34 pm  

IR80 wrote:

Can you show me unequivocal evidence that the planet is being "destroyed"

What, like the shrinking rainforests in Brazil or the reducing ice cap in the Arctic or, would you like me to be more profound and suggest that every lump of coal that we burn or minerals that we draw from underground, will never be replaced.
If you organise a couple of tickets to go to Brazil, I could show you but, that in itself would contribute to the problem so, I suggest that you do some research.

Re: Brexit Anyone? (part 4) : Wed Oct 02, 2019 10:47 pm  

wrencat1873 wrote:

I think that his/her comment on climate change gives the game away slightly, typical WUM.
Anyone who says that they "haven't got time for this climate change clap trap" rally does need to open their eyes.

Strangely, it's only by being part of a larger group of nations that will ever tackle the major issues.

Britain's actions in isolation will affect very little on the world stage - not that you would expect too many of the "leave" brigade to realise this.
Even if the scientist are only 50% right, there does need to be a fundamental shift in how we all live our lives and if they are 100% right, we're probably done for already.

Climate change denial amongst some on the right is frustrating. It's happening whether you believe it or not, and it's almost entirely down to human influence. The evidence/science is pretty overwhelming, as is the accelerating pace of change.

The way we live our lives has to change in many ways, we've become an entitled convenience-addicted throwaway society, dependant on pointless little luxuries. Many single-use and convenience goods will need to be banned at some point: plastic water bottles, plastic straws, disposable nappies, throwaway wipes, anything with plastic nano-particles, and more.

My Mrs laughs because whenever something breaks I'll find a spare part and fix it myself, from a glasses repair kit for £6 to fix some broken sunglasses, to hours of online research to repair a washing machine or a phone or a boiler. Mainly because I'm a tight bugger but that's irrelevant. Society is conditioned to throw everything away and buy new and that has to change. We are consuming at an unsustainable rate.

The way we travel - and the insistence on cheap, regular international travel - also has to change. There's no such thing as cheap air travel in the long run. The drive for "growth" is seeing ever more/bigger airports and more aircraft in the skies (up to 20,000 at any one time) - and it's not just contrails in the sky - there's a lot of associated pollution. We urgently need fewer cars on the road - and electric cars are great, but something has to generate all that additional electricity - and then there's the impact of manufacturing the technology.

We're fairly lucky in this country. We complain about lack of air conditioning in hot summers and get a bit of stormy weather, but across the world the effects of climate change are devastating and are only going to get worse, not just extreme weather events but also on wildlife as many species are wiped out. Go to the Maldives while they're still there. And if you think the flood of migrants is bad now, it's going to increase exponentially as extreme climates render areas virtually uninhabitable and coastal areas are flooded.

And you're correct, the fact is that even if the UK became a Greta Thunberg paradise, it's the big players - China, India, USA, Russia, the EU and others - who need to change drastically, which isn't going to happen in our lifetimes. It's probably too late anyway and although our kids will probably still live a decent life in the largely temperate and wealthy UK, billions won't.

I'm with Thanos.

[Mild Rover]

Re: Brexit Anyone? (part 4) : Thu Oct 03, 2019 6:46 am  

Aye. Relative to that Brexit is a trivial, if curious, issue.

Re: Brexit Anyone? (part 4) : Thu Oct 03, 2019 7:18 am  

wrencat1873 wrote:

I think that his/her comment on climate change gives the game away slightly, typical WUM.
Anyone who says that they "haven't got time for this climate change clap trap" rally does need to open their eyes.

Strangely, it's only by being part of a larger group of nations that will ever tackle the major issues.

Britain's actions in isolation will affect very little on the world stage - not that you would expect too many of the "leave" brigade to realise this.
Even if the scientist are only 50% right, there does need to be a fundamental shift in how we all live our lives and if they are 100% right, we're probably done for already.

For a start I am not denying that the climate is an issue - what I am saying is - to most ordinary people it isn't the issue that it is to the activists that adore "Queen Greta". What this is about the Nu Class who suggest we should all reduce consumption - what they mean is reduce consumption of mass produced products that are accessed by the uneducated - e.g. cars, foreign holidays, McDonalds. They think you should ride bikes, go on holiday in the UK!! and not eat trash food. They don't want to have to reduce consumption of fine cheese, wine and visits to Waitrose.

When you get "Queen Greta" is saying we adults have stolen her childhood - in what way has that happened - it is cynical use of a vulnerable child with significant mental health issues by this Nu Class - its disgusting and they should all be ashamed of themselves

The general public aren't for being told you go to Scarborough and not Ibiza they are not for eating less meat or drinking milk to reduce Methane. The Nu Class are still having there filet steak and Stilton. You only have to look at the crap these protesters leave behind at every rally to question how much of what they preach do they practise.

Re: Brexit Anyone? (part 4) : Thu Oct 03, 2019 7:30 am  

Sal Paradise wrote:

For a start I am not denying that the climate is an issue - what I am saying is - to most ordinary people it isn't the issue that it is to the activists that adore "Queen Greta". What this is about the Nu Class who suggest we should all reduce consumption - what they mean is reduce consumption of mass produced products that are accessed by the uneducated - e.g. cars, foreign holidays, McDonalds. They think you should ride bikes, go on holiday in the UK!! and not eat trash food. They don't want to have to reduce consumption of fine cheese, wine and visits to Waitrose.

When you get "Queen Greta" is saying we adults have stolen her childhood - in what way has that happened - it is cynical use of a vulnerable child with significant mental health issues by this Nu Class - its disgusting and they should all be ashamed of themselves

The general public aren't for being told you go to Scarborough and not Ibiza they are not for eating less meat or drinking milk to reduce Methane. The Nu Class are still having there filet steak and Stilton. You only have to look at the crap these protesters leave behind at every rally to question how much of what they preach do they practise.

There you go again. Deriding an easy target to try and deflect attention from the issue.
The bottom line is that there are too many people on the planet already and that number is growing.
We have an economically aspirational world in China and Asia, who will crave the very things that many in the West take for granted, pushing consumption ever higher.
The whole modern ethos of success being measured by material assets has to change but, I seriously doubt that it will or whether it actually can.

Like most things, people are happy just as long as they dont have to take any personal responsibility.

The guy who used to own my business was a far deeper thinker than me and his thoughts were that, it will take a catastrophic "event" for people to really take notice, by which time, it will probably be too late to reverse the problem and I think that he was 100% right.

The bottom line is that the human species has been too successful.

Re: Brexit Anyone? (part 4) : Thu Oct 03, 2019 7:50 am  

Cronus wrote:

Climate change denial amongst some on the right is frustrating. It's happening whether you believe it or not, and it's almost entirely down to human influence. The evidence/science is pretty overwhelming, as is the accelerating pace of change.

The way we live our lives has to change in many ways, we've become an entitled convenience-addicted throwaway society, dependant on pointless little luxuries. Many single-use and convenience goods will need to be banned at some point: plastic water bottles, plastic straws, disposable nappies, throwaway wipes, anything with plastic nano-particles, and more.

My Mrs laughs because whenever something breaks I'll find a spare part and fix it myself, from a glasses repair kit for £6 to fix some broken sunglasses, to hours of online research to repair a washing machine or a phone or a boiler. Mainly because I'm a tight bugger but that's irrelevant. Society is conditioned to throw everything away and buy new and that has to change. We are consuming at an unsustainable rate.

The way we travel - and the insistence on cheap, regular international travel - also has to change. There's no such thing as cheap air travel in the long run. The drive for "growth" is seeing ever more/bigger airports and more aircraft in the skies (up to 20,000 at any one time) - and it's not just contrails in the sky - there's a lot of associated pollution. We urgently need fewer cars on the road - and electric cars are great, but something has to generate all that additional electricity - and then there's the impact of manufacturing the technology.

We're fairly lucky in this country. We complain about lack of air conditioning in hot summers and get a bit of stormy weather, but across the world the effects of climate change are devastating and are only going to get worse, not just extreme weather events but also on wildlife as many species are wiped out. Go to the Maldives while they're still there. And if you think the flood of migrants is bad now, it's going to increase exponentially as extreme climates render areas virtually uninhabitable and coastal areas are flooded.

And you're correct, the fact is that even if the UK became a Greta Thunberg paradise, it's the big players - China, India, USA, Russia, the EU and others - who need to change drastically, which isn't going to happen in our lifetimes. It's probably too late anyway and although our kids will probably still live a decent life in the largely temperate and wealthy UK, billions won't.

I'm with Thanos.

Only two things that Cronus and I agree on; science fiction, and this post.

Late stage capitalism, which is predicated on constant growth, is broken - because it relies on producing more and more stuff that we don't need, won't last and will end up in landfill, the sea or the atmosphere; it's simply not sustainable, and no amount of mocking a neuro-divergent teenager will change that. Drastic changes to how people live their lives will either happen because we choose it, or it will be enforced on us by a dying planet.