Re: Brexit Anyone? (part 4) : Thu Oct 03, 2019 8:01 am  

wrencat1873 wrote:

There you go again. Deriding an easy target to try and deflect attention from the issue.
The bottom line is that there are too many people on the planet already and that number is growing.
We have an economically aspirational world in China and Asia, who will crave the very things that many in the West take for granted, pushing consumption ever higher.
The whole modern ethos of success being measured by material assets has to change but, I seriously doubt that it will or whether it actually can.

Like most things, people are happy just as long as they dont have to take any personal responsibility.

The guy who used to own my business was a far deeper thinker than me and his thoughts were that, it will take a catastrophic "event" for people to really take notice, by which time, it will probably be too late to reverse the problem and I think that he was 100% right.

The bottom line is that the human species has been too successful.

Not at all and you have just confirmed my view - ordinary people love to consume - that is what they work for - do you really think they will go not going to Ibiza too much Carbon? I take it you holiday in the UK?

They have been saying for decades that we will not be able to feed everyone - yet we waste more food than ever. It simply isn't true - they used to talk about the Ozone - I seldom hear anyone talking about the Ozone these days in the 50s the talked about Global cooling etc.

Where I think things really are wrong is the uneven spread of wealth and that may in the long term get resolved - sadly pushing money down the chain will lead to greater consumption.

Re: Brexit Anyone? (part 4) : Thu Oct 03, 2019 8:09 am  

bren2k wrote:

Only two things that Cronus and I agree on; science fiction, and this post.

Late stage capitalism, which is predicated on constant growth, is broken - because it relies on producing more and more stuff that we don't need, won't last and will end up in landfill, the sea or the atmosphere; it's simply not sustainable, and no amount of mocking a neuro-divergent teenager will change that. Drastic changes to how people live their lives will either happen because we choose it, or it will be enforced on us by a dying planet.

I don't disagree with you - all I said was most working class people simply do not care. We all enjoy consuming rightly or wrongly - what are you suggesting we do - go nowhere, buy nothing, eat less etc. Pretty dull life spending you day just looking at your local environment.

THis planet has survived catastrophic events it hasn't done that by not being adaptable - scale is something that is missing here - the idea that planet will be inhabitable in 30-50 years lack all credibility. This planet has evolved over billions of years.

Re: Brexit Anyone? (part 4) : Thu Oct 03, 2019 8:24 am  

Sal Paradise wrote:

I don't disagree with you - all I said was most working class people simply do not care. We all enjoy consuming rightly or wrongly - what are you suggesting we do - go nowhere, buy nothing, eat less etc. Pretty dull life spending you day just looking at your local environment.

THis planet has survived catastrophic events it hasn't done that by not being adaptable - scale is something that is missing here - the idea that planet will be inhabitable in 30-50 years lack all credibility. This planet has evolved over billions of years.

No I'm not suggesting that - I said we will need to change the way we live, or have it forced upon us.

I don't disagree that consumerism is a problem - but it's fed, encouraged, possibly forced on us by greedy, soulless mega-corps who's sole raison d'etre is to produce more return for shareholders; there are some persuasive arguments coming from a new generation of economists, to suggest that in a future, more 'woke' market, businesses who want to succeed will have to find a new motivation to do so, which isn't based solely on profit and shareholder return - because there are plenty of young people, future customers, who won't tolerate businesses who don't care about the things that they care about.

Because I don't want to have nightmares about the world my children, and theirs, will live in, I tend to believe that the solution will be a mixture of several things - the death of growth based capitalism and an end to the obsession with GDP, technological advances designed and delivered by the very young people who are currently mocked by old white men, and new, more urgent motivation to change driven by catastrophic events in those vulnerable parts of the world that Cronus has elucidated - the Maldives, Vietnam etc, where millions of people are on the verge of being displaced due to climate change.

Re: Brexit Anyone? (part 4) : Thu Oct 03, 2019 8:38 am  

Sal Paradise wrote:

Not at all and you have just confirmed my view - ordinary people love to consume - that is what they work for - do you really think they will go not going to Ibiza too much Carbon? I take it you holiday in the UK?

They have been saying for decades that we will not be able to feed everyone - yet we waste more food than ever. It simply isn't true - they used to talk about the Ozone - I seldom hear anyone talking about the Ozone these days in the 50s the talked about Global cooling etc.

Where I think things really are wrong is the uneven spread of wealth and that may in the long term get resolved - sadly pushing money down the chain will lead to greater consumption.

Oh right.
So, you are suggesting that the more money that you have in your pocket, the less that you will consume ??
Are you saying that the wealthiest people in society simply sit at home checking their bank balance while the poor are "burning the planet".

Personally, I'm too tight to spend much anyway so, I happy that I'm well below the line when it comes to consumption.
I hate food waste and usually use things until they wear out and then recycle anything that's left - assuming that it can be recycled.

Within my business, we recycle over 80% of all packaging and recycle just as much as possible.

Yes, I still go overseas but, travel less than I did 10/15 years ago.

Over to you, pal.

Re: Brexit Anyone? (part 4) : Thu Oct 03, 2019 9:36 am  

wrencat1873 wrote:

Oh right.
So, you are suggesting that the more money that you have in your pocket, the less that you will consume ??
Are you saying that the wealthiest people in society simply sit at home checking their bank balance while the poor are "burning the planet".

Personally, I'm too tight to spend much anyway so, I happy that I'm well below the line when it comes to consumption.
I hate food waste and usually use things until they wear out and then recycle anything that's left - assuming that it can be recycled.

Within my business, we recycle over 80% of all packaging and recycle just as much as possible.

Yes, I still go overseas but, travel less than I did 10/15 years ago.

Over to you, pal.

You really need to deep breath and read what is written not want you want it to say.

If you spread Bill Gates wealth over 1000 people would those 1000 people eat more than Gates, wear more clothes than Gates, drive more cars than Gates etc of course they would - overall consumption would increase.

It is admirable that you do all you do - we recycle everything we can - its much cheaper than plonking it in landfill. All company cars are electric including mine.

It isn't me you need to convince its the younger generation that are starting on the journey and are used to us - their parents - giving them everything so that is the lifestyle they expect i.e. own their own car go abroad for holidays, have their own home will all the gadgets that go with it have a mobile phone, computers etc, etc. Why should we deny them their aspirations after we have experienced those benefits. Do we say no you catch the bus - something we have not done with and regularity.

Re: Brexit Anyone? (part 4) : Thu Oct 03, 2019 10:09 am  

Sal Paradise wrote:

You really need to deep breath and read what is written not want you want it to say.

If you spread Bill Gates wealth over 1000 people would those 1000 people eat more than Gates, wear more clothes than Gates, drive more cars than Gates etc of course they would - overall consumption would increase.

It is admirable that you do all you do - we recycle everything we can - its much cheaper than plonking it in landfill. All company cars are electric including mine.

It isn't me you need to convince its the younger generation that are starting on the journey and are used to us - their parents - giving them everything so that is the lifestyle they expect i.e. own their own car go abroad for holidays, have their own home will all the gadgets that go with it have a mobile phone, computers etc, etc. Why should we deny them their aspirations after we have experienced those benefits. Do we say no you catch the bus - something we have not done with and regularity.

Ah right, I see the solution now.

If we allow most of the wealth in just a small percentage of the population and suppress the people at the bottom of the pile, it's being done for their own good - seems fair ??

Although, as I mentioned in a previous post, there are tens of millions of aspirational Asian and Chinese people who's spending power is growing and with it their consumption will increase. They too will want to drive round in fancy cars and enjoy some of the things that, up to now, relatively few in their own country have experienced.

It's a huge problem

Re: Brexit Anyone? (part 4) : Thu Oct 03, 2019 1:07 pm  

wrencat1873 wrote:

Ah right, I see the solution now.

If we allow most of the wealth in just a small percentage of the population and suppress the people at the bottom of the pile, it's being done for their own good - seems fair ??

Although, as I mentioned in a previous post, there are tens of millions of aspirational Asian and Chinese people who's spending power is growing and with it their consumption will increase. They too will want to drive round in fancy cars and enjoy some of the things that, up to now, relatively few in their own country have experienced.

It's a huge problem

My argument was for a better spread of wealth - but with it comes the issue of consumption as you kindly pointed out with emerging economies in Asia. The planet is pretty adaptable and there is a hell of a lot of natural resources go at - that's before we find was of fusing molecules together to make more e.g. diamonds.

Re: Brexit Anyone? (part 4) : Thu Oct 03, 2019 1:27 pm  

Sal Paradise wrote:

It simply isn't true - they used to talk about the Ozone - I seldom hear anyone talking about the Ozone

Jesus Christ what unimaginable, ignorant rubbish.

Maybe, just maybe, that's because we employed science and facts and in a huge piece of international cooperation made great changes to our destructive behaviour such that the depletion of the ozone layer stopped being the issue it had become.

Or maybe the same fairies who will fix Brexit if we wish hard enough went up there and patched it up without us doing anything. Gee I wonder.

Re: Brexit Anyone? (part 4) : Thu Oct 03, 2019 3:01 pm  

The Ghost of '99 wrote:

Or maybe the same fairies who will fix Brexit if we wish hard enough went up there and patched it up without us doing anything. Gee I wonder.

But right now they're busy making diamonds by fusing molecules together.

Re: Brexit Anyone? (part 4) : Fri Oct 04, 2019 8:14 am  

Sal Paradise wrote:

they used to talk about the Ozone - I seldom hear anyone talking about the Ozone these days

I'll give you a clue...