Re: Brexit Anyone? (part 4) : Wed Oct 09, 2019 9:03 pm  

Mild Rover wrote: Obviously there is a group of MPs who want to remain, but they are in a minority. Maybe about 114, based on the vote to trigger article 50. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-38833883 That was before the last election, but give or take. The problem is that those who are happy or at least willing to Leave are spread across the spectrum of soft through hard to the impossibilist/no deal approach of the ERG, and completely unable or unwilling to accept anything other than their own specific version that they all believe 17.4 million voters endorsed. The problem isn’t remainers, the problem is the Leave coalition breaking down and failing to unite behind a single coherent position. And everybody kinda forgot about Northern Ireland because it hadn’t been on the news for 20 years - making up for lost time now though, innit? Oh come on, you're normally a good and reasonable poster but that's a simply terrible source for your argument. In 2016 no-one expected Leave to win. They wanted to shut Farage up and they all wanted to appear to be democratic and open. That's why they voted for the referendum. When they lost and it came to A50 they all wanted to appear to be honourable and democratic, having promised repeatedly to "honour and respect" the result. At that time and in that political climate they could not be seen to be rejecting the referendum. Most of them voted for A50 through gritted teeth, meanwhile plotting to do their best to reverse the whole thing. As we have seen. It's widely accepted over 70% of MPs voted remain. The Press Association polled 650 MPs ahead of the referendum: - 480 MPs said they intended to vote Remain (184 Tories, 218 Labour + the rest) - 159 MPs said they would be voting Leave (139 Tories, 11 Labour + the rest) - 11 MPs were undeclared Since then the 'Leave' parties have increased their share of seats. So while the ERG have been a small gremlin in the process, Remainers are very much the problem. They voted for the referendum, they voted for A50, they ALL promised to respect the result, 150 Labour MPs even represent Leave constituencies, yet they simply cannot bring themselves to carry Brexit through or get away from their true colours: Remain.

Mild Rover wrote: Obviously there is a group of MPs who want to remain, but they are in a minority. Maybe about 114, based on the vote to trigger article 50. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-38833883 That was before the last election, but give or take. The problem is that those who are happy or at least willing to Leave are spread across the spectrum of soft through hard to the impossibilist/no deal approach of the ERG, and completely unable or unwilling to accept anything other than their own specific version that they all believe 17.4 million voters endorsed. The problem isn’t remainers, the problem is the Leave coalition breaking down and failing to unite behind a single coherent position. And everybody kinda forgot about Northern Ireland because it hadn’t been on the news for 20 years - making up for lost time now though, innit? Oh come on, you're normally a good and reasonable poster but that's a simply terrible source for your argument. In 2016 no-one expected Leave to win. They wanted to shut Farage up and they all wanted to appear to be democratic and open. That's why they voted for the referendum. When they lost and it came to A50 they all wanted to appear to be honourable and democratic, having promised repeatedly to "honour and respect" the result. At that time and in that political climate they could not be seen to be rejecting the referendum. Most of them voted for A50 through gritted teeth, meanwhile plotting to do their best to reverse the whole thing. As we have seen. It's widely accepted over 70% of MPs voted remain. The Press Association polled 650 MPs ahead of the referendum: - 480 MPs said they intended to vote Remain (184 Tories, 218 Labour + the rest) - 159 MPs said they would be voting Leave (139 Tories, 11 Labour + the rest) - 11 MPs were undeclared Since then the 'Leave' parties have increased their share of seats. So while the ERG have been a small gremlin in the process, Remainers are very much the problem. They voted for the referendum, they voted for A50, they ALL promised to respect the result, 150 Labour MPs even represent Leave constituencies, yet they simply cannot bring themselves to carry Brexit through or get away from their true colours: Remain.

Re: Brexit Anyone? (part 4) : Wed Oct 09, 2019 9:09 pm  

Cronus wrote:

Oh god change the record. I'll repeat pretty much what I said to you the last time you reeled this irrelevant claptrap out: All you're trying to do is absolve the opposition from any responsibility in enacting the result of the referendum.

It's not the opposition's responsibility to enact the government's policies. A typical denial of responsibility by Brexiteers.
If the Tories had wanted opposition support they should have negotiated a less Tory Brexit and incorporated some of Labour's red lines. It's not like Corbyn is a huge fan of the EU, it would have been pretty easy to get a bipartisan bill into the House. But the Tories put party over country yet again - the root cause of why we're in this huge mess in the first place.

Re: Brexit Anyone? (part 4) : Wed Oct 09, 2019 9:13 pm  

The Ghost of '99 wrote:

It's not the opposition's responsibility to enact the government's policies. A typical denial of responsibility by Brexiteers.
If the Tories had wanted opposition support they should have negotiated a less Tory Brexit and incorporated some of Labour's red lines. It's not like Corbyn is a huge fan of the EU, it would have been pretty easy to get a bipartisan bill into the House. But the Tories put party over country yet again - the root cause of why we're in this huge mess in the first place.

All the Tories expected was Labour to do what they promised in their manifesto - a soft Brexit labour stylee is remain under another name, no realistic deal that included all Labour's red lines was ever going to get through the house, they knew that all they really wanted was to remain and they were going to make leaving as hard as possible - you know it, I know it and all the MPs know it - a deal passing all Labour's red lines is so good Labour are going to campaign against it - go figure

[Mild Rover]

Re: Brexit Anyone? (part 4) : Wed Oct 09, 2019 9:27 pm  

Cronus wrote:

Oh god change the record. I'll repeat pretty much what I said to you the last time you reeled this irrelevant claptrap out: All you're trying to do is absolve the opposition from any responsibility in enacting the result of the referendum.

The opposite benches voted to hold a referendum, they voted for Article 50, they campaigned on leave manifestos, they promised to "honour and respect" the result. Approx 150 Labour constituencies voted to leave, yet only around 5 Labour MPs (that's 3% of MPs "representing" leave constituencies) have chosen to honour that vote. Again and again they act to hinder and delay, preferring to damage the government rather than enact the referendum. They are a hypocritical lying disgrace.

Yes, the ERG are as guilty as anyone, but at least they're upfront about their intentions, and frankly they're only small in number. Just 34 Tories voted against the deal last time alongside 234 Labour + 76 others.

I think there’s a risk that the prospect of no deal starts to shift the Overton window, making May’s position seem like something other than a very hard Brexit. At this point, personally i’d let it pass by hypothetically abstaining. But it was always going to be a big ask to get Labour to dip the their metaphorical hand in the metaphorical blood they’d had no part in spilling. Or look gormless or opportunistic in their passivity. Just as, in fairness, it would have been very difficult for May to strike a cross-party deal. Unlike me they have/had to worry about the day after, politically.

The truth is, there’s no majority in parliament or the country for any single option. And they’re all pretty rotten, from the denial of democracy, through the tokenistic and the unworkable to the worryingly economically damaging.

I don’t think I can make a positive case for any course of action - my preference is based on least worst. I don’t know if it is that the whole mess has just finally exhausted the well of dark humour, or if Boris Johnson’s depressingly predictable floundering and increasing ill humour is glumming me out, but it does seem pretty hopeless. I mean, when your white knight is Jeremy Corbyn, it is a rum do.

[Mild Rover]

Re: Brexit Anyone? (part 4) : Wed Oct 09, 2019 9:36 pm  

Sal Paradise wrote:

All the Tories expected was Labour to do what they promised in their manifesto - a soft Brexit labour stylee is remain under another name, no realistic deal that included all Labour's red lines was ever going to get through the house, they knew that all they really wanted was to remain and they were going to make leaving as hard as possible - you know it, I know it and all the MPs know it - a deal passing all Labour's red lines is so good Labour are going to campaign against it - go figure

Fair enough, but May’s deal doesn’t deliver for the free-trade, regulatory divergence wing of the Brexit coalition (at least not immediately, or probably ever to the extent demanded by the so-called Spartans [who no doubt want their Helots]), and no-deal isn’t remotely Brexit as advertised.

Re: Brexit Anyone? (part 4) : Thu Oct 10, 2019 1:00 am  

bren2k wrote:

That would be a passable bit of whataboutery, if it were even remotely true.

What he actually said was: "I've been wondering what that special place in hell looks like, for those who promoted Brexit, without even a sketch of a plan how to carry it out safely."

So ya know - nil points.

Still the point remains about guilt by association. Not everybody who voted leave talks about Germans as Krauts or Italians as wops or the French as frogs its just a stick remainers like to beat brexiteers with. Its like the snide comments about "empire" and ww2. Why do remainers have such a feeling of shame about their own country? Is the EU so perfect? Whatever side you take on this debacle there is no shame in being British just as I am sure other nations are proud of their heritage. The people aren't the problem in this shambles it's those that represent us whatever their political persuasion.

Re: Brexit Anyone? (part 4) : Thu Oct 10, 2019 7:01 am  

wotsupcas wrote:

Still the point remains about guilt by association. Not everybody who voted leave talks about Germans as Krauts or Italians as wops or the French as frogs its just a stick remainers like to beat brexiteers with. Its like the snide comments about "empire" and ww2. Why do remainers have such a feeling of shame about their own country? Is the EU so perfect? Whatever side you take on this debacle there is no shame in being British just as I am sure other nations are proud of their heritage. The people aren't the problem in this shambles it's those that represent us whatever their political persuasion.

No shame about the country but, some of the people, especially those driving the leave campaign, make me hurl.
A campaign, where images of people in detention, allegedly queueing up to enter the UK - a truly great example

An anti immigration theme was never going to bring the best out in people was it ?

[Mild Rover]

Re: Brexit Anyone? (part 4) : Thu Oct 10, 2019 7:44 am  

Sal Paradise wrote:

Remain leaning MPs are far more than 114 - there are 50 SNP for a start so let's be realistic - just because they voted to trigger article 50 doesn't mean they supported leave. David Lammy is one example, Hilary Benn, Ken Clarke another etc.

As a country we shouldn't let a few idiots in Ireland and the inability of the Irish governments to control their citizens. The troubles in the end were simply a cover for organised crime which provided arms to other organised criminals. This still goes on but the lack of a border makes it even easier.

The problem is anything but no deal basically leaves you in and you trade independence for trade access to Europe. As I said before we went into Europe to smooth trade what has happened is we are now controlled by a super state run by the unelected such as Barnier, Tusk and Jonkers. Labour are simply going to offer you two versions of remain.

I think Ken Clarke voted for May’s withdrawal bill every time it was put to Parliament. He called it a ‘dog’s breakfast’, but he can hardly be accused of blocking it or Brexit.

I agree with the problem you identify for those who feel as you do about the EU, of whom there are many. But no deal also brings big problems. We’ve got problems aplenty, just no good solutions... it seems. Maybe the Johnson-Varadkar talks will yield a breakthrough today, and we’ll get something tolerable for enough people.

[Mild Rover]

Re: Brexit Anyone? (part 4) : Thu Oct 10, 2019 7:58 am  

Cronus wrote:

Oh come on, you're normally a good and reasonable poster but that's a simply terrible source for your argument.

In 2016 no-one expected Leave to win. They wanted to shut Farage up and they all wanted to appear to be democratic and open. That's why they voted for the referendum.

When they lost and it came to A50 they all wanted to appear to be honourable and democratic, having promised repeatedly to "honour and respect" the result. At that time and in that political climate they could not be seen to be rejecting the referendum. Most of them voted for A50 through gritted teeth, meanwhile plotting to do their best to reverse the whole thing. As we have seen.

It's widely accepted over 70% of MPs voted remain. The Press Association polled 650 MPs ahead of the referendum:
- 480 MPs said they intended to vote Remain (184 Tories, 218 Labour + the rest)
- 159 MPs said they would be voting Leave (139 Tories, 11 Labour + the rest)
- 11 MPs were undeclared

Since then the 'Leave' parties have increased their share of seats.

So while the ERG have been a small gremlin in the process, Remainers are very much the problem. They voted for the referendum, they voted for A50, they ALL promised to respect the result, 150 Labour MPs even represent Leave constituencies, yet they simply cannot bring themselves to carry Brexit through or get away from their true colours: Remain.

Both Labour and the Tories, if not putting party before country, had at least twin objectives. Neither leader was willing to work with the other, and in fairness any effort to do so would likely have led to them being quickly removed as leader. It is a reflection on our adversarial political system struggling to adapt to a situation where there are new (sort of) and deep intraparty splits, adding to rather than replacing the traditional interparty differences.

I’m not going to defend labour’s position(s) on Brexit, but it was unrealistic to expect them to vote for May’s hard Brexit deal that was designed to appeal to an entirely different audience... for all that it failed in that too.

Re: Brexit Anyone? (part 4) : Thu Oct 10, 2019 8:23 am  

The big problem is that Brexit still means so many different outcomes for so many different people as an end result, even after 3 years of fantasy hitting reality.

Picture Brexit as a 30cm ruler. On the far left of the ruler, at 0cm, sits the far left, who see Brexit (or Lexit) as a way of turning the UK into a socialist utopia. On the far right of the ruler, at 30cm, sits the far right, who see Brexit as a way to shut down immigration, close borders, and turn the UK into a capitalist sweat shop. Then at every cm point towards the 15cm point in the middle, you have various other viewpoints, ranging from left leaning socialism, community projects and state ownership, to right leaning corporatism, privatisation, deregulation and low tax. A lot of people are going to be mightily disappointed. Do you think either side are just going to roll over and accept something so extremely at odds to their own views?

Maybe we need to concentrate on the views of the people who see themselves between 13cm and 17cm on the ruler? Presumably, these are the people who have weighed up both extreme ends of the argument, and have distilled them into a possible solution to this charade.