FORUMS FORUMS






RLFANS.COM
Celebrating
25 years service to
the Rugby League
Community!

  
 Current LIVE TV Match : St.Helens 2 - 0 Wigan Warriors LIVE ON SKY SPORTS Dupree Sin Bin
WWW.RLFANS.COM • View topic - Health and Safety at Work Act 1974.
::Off-topic discussion.
RankPostsTeam
International Star5113
JoinedServiceReputation
Feb 23 201410 years82nd
OnlineLast PostLast Page
29th Mar 24 00:2628th Mar 24 19:26LINK
Milestone Posts
5000
10000
Milestone Years
0510 1520 2530

Re: Health and Safety at Work Act 1974. : Tue Apr 14, 2020 12:23 pm  
With the power recently given to the government to change employment law Unions are more important than ever, which sadly many will find when savings need to be made.
User avatar
RankPostsTeam
Moderator12568
JoinedServiceReputation
Jun 01 200717 years125th
OnlineLast PostLast Page
28th Mar 24 23:2225th Mar 24 07:35LINK
Milestone Posts
10000
15000
Milestone Years
0510 1520 2530
Location
Leicestershire.
Signature
'Thus I am tormented by my curiosity and humbled by my ignorance.' from History of an Old Bramin, The New York Mirror (A Weekly Journal Devoted to Literature and the Fine Arts), February 16th 1833.
Moderator

Re: Health and Safety at Work Act 1974. : Tue Apr 14, 2020 4:34 pm  
Sal Paradise wrote:
We all know that voting against a strike if its called is difficult - the idea that its any way democratic is delusional - its like an election in Africa!!

I think your last statement is incorrect - we a distrustful relationship between employers and the representatives of employees who work to a set agenda in which the individual is lost. The guy/girl from the union wont lose their job if their intransigence leads to the employer taking a course of action that leads to loss of jobs. McClusky soon piped-down when Ratcliffe said enough is enough I don't need this I will close Grangemouth. To blame the employer all the time is unfair.


Tbf, when I was in a Union and was balloted on industrial action I didn’t feel remotely pressured in how I voted. It wasn’t like it was a show of hands in the car park.

It isn’t always the employers’ fault or even a case of there being fault at all. It’s about power, frankly - and collective bargaining, like in many walks of life, is more powerful. There’s a loss of fine individual control, maybe... but across a large organisation would management want to be negotiating with every individual every time there’s a need for consultation and change?

Work is becoming more transient, and labour relations will no doubt evolve to reflect that.
User avatar
RankPostsTeam
International Board Member18060No
Team
Selected
JoinedServiceReputation
Feb 27 200222 years287th
OnlineLast PostLast Page
11th Jun 23 20:4411th Jun 23 20:53LINK
Milestone Posts
15000
20000
Milestone Years
0510 1520 2530
Location
On the road
Signature
Your job is to say to yourself on a job interview does the hiring manager likes me or not. If you aren't a particular manager's cup of tea, you haven't failed -- you've dodged a bullet.

Re: Health and Safety at Work Act 1974. : Tue Apr 14, 2020 7:22 pm  
Mild Rover wrote:
Tbf, when I was in a Union and was balloted on industrial action I didn’t feel remotely pressured in how I voted. It wasn’t like it was a show of hands in the car park.

It isn’t always the employers’ fault or even a case of there being fault at all. It’s about power, frankly - and collective bargaining, like in many walks of life, is more powerful. There’s a loss of fine individual control, maybe... but across a large organisation would management want to be negotiating with every individual every time there’s a need for consultation and change?

Work is becoming more transient, and labour relations will no doubt evolve to reflect that.


The company doesn't need to negotiate with every employee - they simply need to set guidelines/pay grades and then the managers adjust between the upper and lower limit to reflect performance - not difficult really.

The power in the private sector lies with the employer the opposite is the case in the public sector. Jim Ratcliffe showed the power of what private businesses can bring to the table - not so easy in the public sector - can you close down refuse collection. Collective bargaining is a very blunt tool and seldom delivers the best outcome because it doesn't allow for better performers who in that scenario are in with the rest - dumbs down - it cannot do otherwise i.e. lowest common denominator. Take SL what suits Leeds/Wigan/Saints is not the same as Wakefield/Salford etc so any deal has to be dumbed down.

Unions are an outdated concept and not fit for today's work in the private sector - yes in the public sector where progress is snail-pace a contributory factor is definitely the intransigence of the unions. Will they evolve - perhaps some fresh unions that don't carry the history/practises of the current crop of established unions?
User avatar
RankPostsTeam
Moderator12568
JoinedServiceReputation
Jun 01 200717 years125th
OnlineLast PostLast Page
28th Mar 24 23:2225th Mar 24 07:35LINK
Milestone Posts
10000
15000
Milestone Years
0510 1520 2530
Location
Leicestershire.
Signature
'Thus I am tormented by my curiosity and humbled by my ignorance.' from History of an Old Bramin, The New York Mirror (A Weekly Journal Devoted to Literature and the Fine Arts), February 16th 1833.
Moderator

Re: Health and Safety at Work Act 1974. : Tue Apr 14, 2020 9:09 pm  
Sal Paradise wrote:
The company doesn't need to negotiate with every employee - they simply need to set guidelines/pay grades and then the managers adjust between the upper and lower limit to reflect performance - not difficult really.

The power in the private sector lies with the employer the opposite is the case in the public sector.


A car dealer doesn’t ‘need’ to deal with the illogical, shameless, psychotic brilliance of my wife’s negotiation - they’d be perfectly capable of selling me my new automobile within a narrow internally-agreed range of the list price. Yet, for some strange reason, I take her along.

Power isn’t binary... it can be taken, or at very least mitigated. And it can shift.

Employers and employees have shared goals (a successful and profitable enterprise) but there’s a tension there about how the rewards should be divided and both sides try to rig the market, and sell it as a moral good. Sometimes it is, depending somewhat on your perspective.

I agree that unions have become less relevant. The younger generation are much more flexible and self-reliant, and rather less naively loyal than mine. They have a different set of values and tools, as every generation needs to.
User avatar
RankPostsTeam
International Board Member18060No
Team
Selected
JoinedServiceReputation
Feb 27 200222 years287th
OnlineLast PostLast Page
11th Jun 23 20:4411th Jun 23 20:53LINK
Milestone Posts
15000
20000
Milestone Years
0510 1520 2530
Location
On the road
Signature
Your job is to say to yourself on a job interview does the hiring manager likes me or not. If you aren't a particular manager's cup of tea, you haven't failed -- you've dodged a bullet.

Re: Health and Safety at Work Act 1974. : Wed Apr 15, 2020 7:54 am  
Mild Rover wrote:
A car dealer doesn’t ‘need’ to deal with the illogical, shameless, psychotic brilliance of my wife’s negotiation - they’d be perfectly capable of selling me my new automobile within a narrow internally-agreed range of the list price. Yet, for some strange reason, I take her along.

Power isn’t binary... it can be taken, or at very least mitigated. And it can shift.

Employers and employees have shared goals (a successful and profitable enterprise) but there’s a tension there about how the rewards should be divided and both sides try to rig the market, and sell it as a moral good. Sometimes it is, depending somewhat on your perspective.

I agree that unions have become less relevant. The younger generation are much more flexible and self-reliant, and rather less naively loyal than mine. They have a different set of values and tools, as every generation needs to.


Car dealers are interesting - I find them very easy to deal with I have a price I want to pay - I tell them at the start they either want to sell it at that price or they don't - saves so much time. If they don't somebody else will.

I disagree - power is binary either you have the upper hand or you don't - there is no middle ground. One party cannot be forced not matter what the threat if they don't want to go there.

We agree on the unions - outdated and incapable of adapting
User avatar
RankPostsTeam
Player Coach1884No
Team
Selected
JoinedServiceReputation
Jul 18 200618 years269th
OnlineLast PostLast Page
30th Dec 23 10:002nd May 23 14:54LINK
Milestone Posts
1000
2500
Milestone Years
0510 1520 2530
Location
Warrington

Re: Health and Safety at Work Act 1974. : Wed Apr 15, 2020 8:07 am  
Sal Paradise wrote:
What are you talking about - perhaps if we all followed what went on at the Unite at Falkirk :CRAZY:


Ok, I'll educate you. A union cant take industrial action unless 40% of those eligible to vote are in favour. Also, the industrial action must be in line with what was voted upon. So, in the case of Brexit ~34% of those eligible to vote voted in favour of leaving. The percentage voting for a Tory government was somewhat less. So, please explain why unions are not democratic whilst the referendum and GE were.
User avatar
RankPostsTeam
Club Coach7718
JoinedServiceReputation
Mar 30 200420 years79th
OnlineLast PostLast Page
29th Mar 24 09:2927th Mar 24 22:54LINK
Milestone Posts
5000
10000
Milestone Years
0510 1520 2530
Location
Sorting my Erection out & Helping Conroy With his!
Signature
Fans Forum 28.08.08 Fan from Haydock

"I've got one word for you Mr Chairman - Penalty Count"

[quote="The Daddy"]I've got one word for you all......Steve Hanley[/quote]

Some Salford fan said to me and I quote "You are by far and away the most Handsome & Knowledgeable Rugby League Fan in England!"

I thanked him and went on my Merry way!

RIVERCAVE DWELLER OF THE YEAR 2015!

"The club used you last night and didn't tell the truth."

Officially one of the 119 Mugs used by the club

Re: Health and Safety at Work Act 1974. : Wed Apr 15, 2020 8:10 am  
Sal Paradise wrote:
Car dealers are interesting - I find them very easy to deal with I have a price I want to pay - I tell them at the start they either want to sell it at that price or they don't - saves so much time. If they don't somebody else will.

I disagree - power is binary either you have the upper hand or you don't - there is no middle ground. One party cannot be forced not matter what the threat if they don't want to go there.

We agree on the unions - outdated and incapable of adapting


As long as your alright then
User avatar
RankPostsTeam
International Board Member18060No
Team
Selected
JoinedServiceReputation
Feb 27 200222 years287th
OnlineLast PostLast Page
11th Jun 23 20:4411th Jun 23 20:53LINK
Milestone Posts
15000
20000
Milestone Years
0510 1520 2530
Location
On the road
Signature
Your job is to say to yourself on a job interview does the hiring manager likes me or not. If you aren't a particular manager's cup of tea, you haven't failed -- you've dodged a bullet.

Re: Health and Safety at Work Act 1974. : Wed Apr 15, 2020 9:24 am  
Jukesays wrote:
As long as your alright then


I am the one taking all the risk, I put all the money in - its my family's house on the line - so yes its pretty important that the tail doesn't wag the dog.

If the union is so good at running businesses let them get on with it - we all know what the result would be if they applied their own demands to their own business - it wouldn't last two minutes but they don't and therein lies the crux of the matter.
User avatar
RankPostsTeam
International Board Member18060No
Team
Selected
JoinedServiceReputation
Feb 27 200222 years287th
OnlineLast PostLast Page
11th Jun 23 20:4411th Jun 23 20:53LINK
Milestone Posts
15000
20000
Milestone Years
0510 1520 2530
Location
On the road
Signature
Your job is to say to yourself on a job interview does the hiring manager likes me or not. If you aren't a particular manager's cup of tea, you haven't failed -- you've dodged a bullet.

Re: Health and Safety at Work Act 1974. : Wed Apr 15, 2020 9:29 am  
silver2 wrote:
Ok, I'll educate you. A union cant take industrial action unless 40% of those eligible to vote are in favour. Also, the industrial action must be in line with what was voted upon. So, in the case of Brexit ~34% of those eligible to vote voted in favour of leaving. The percentage voting for a Tory government was somewhat less. So, please explain why unions are not democratic whilst the referendum and GE were.


40% of the union membership not 40% of the workforce - for a start. So if the union call their members out what happens to non-union members who do the same job, they are also expected to strike - difficult to cross picket lines as you well know - that is one of the reasons why it isn't democratic - but then an educated man like you knew that (sic)
User avatar
RankPostsTeam
Moderator12568
JoinedServiceReputation
Jun 01 200717 years125th
OnlineLast PostLast Page
28th Mar 24 23:2225th Mar 24 07:35LINK
Milestone Posts
10000
15000
Milestone Years
0510 1520 2530
Location
Leicestershire.
Signature
'Thus I am tormented by my curiosity and humbled by my ignorance.' from History of an Old Bramin, The New York Mirror (A Weekly Journal Devoted to Literature and the Fine Arts), February 16th 1833.
Moderator

Re: Health and Safety at Work Act 1974. : Wed Apr 15, 2020 10:55 am  
Sal Paradise wrote:
40% of the union membership not 40% of the workforce - for a start. So if the union call their members out what happens to non-union members who do the same job, they are also expected to strike - difficult to cross picket lines as you well know - that is one of the reasons why it isn't democratic - but then an educated man like you knew that (sic)


As I understand it, non-Union members are not allowed to strike. For me personally, crossing a picket line was difficult, even though it was the less than militant UCU - just didn’t feel right. So, because I hadn’t got around to joining initially, I had to take a day of annual leave. Next time, I was on the picket line. That was kinda boring.
PreviousNext

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 261 guests

REPLY

Subject: 
Message:
   
Please note using apple style emoji's can result in posting failures.
Use the FULL EDITOR to better format content or upload images, be notified of replies etc...

Return to The Sin Bin


RLFANS Recent Posts
FORUM
LAST
POST
TOPIC
POSTER
POSTS
3m
BORED The Band Name Game
Boss Hog
56070
3m
Shopping list for 2025
UllFC
411
4m
Game - Song Titles
Boss Hog
34344
8m
Protest
UllFC
19
13m
Saints a
Cherry_Warri
31
15m
The Record-Breaking Good Friday Derby Massacre
Hullrealist
261
32m
Rd 6 I Cas A
KaeruJim
140
33m
No grade A for 2025 for Trinity
PopTart
40
53m
Halifax H
BullRaider
34
Recent
Wigan v Sts discussion - THIS THREAD ONLY PLEASE
WWste
1936
FORUM
LAST
VIEW
TOPIC
POSTER
POSTS
26s
Protest
UllFC
19
27s
Squad for Catalan
CW8
19
28s
Wigan v Sts discussion - THIS THREAD ONLY PLEASE
WWste
1936
31s
The official Leon Hayes Thread
Smiffy27
18
34s
The Record-Breaking Good Friday Derby Massacre
Hullrealist
261
37s
Cup Quarter Final TV Arrangements
WYSIWYG2
2
55s
TV Games - Not Hull
Marcus's Bic
1389
57s
Why have so many big clubs given up on the field
FlexWheeler
1
1m
No grade A for 2025 for Trinity
PopTart
40
1m
The Bulls away
terry silver
9
FORUM
NEW
TOPICS
TOPIC
POSTER
POSTS
TODAY
Why have so many big clubs given up on the field
FlexWheeler
1
TODAY
Early Season Double for Hull KR Over Neighbours FC
RLFANS News
1
TODAY
Protest
UllFC
19
TODAY
New Investors
BullRaider
2
TODAY
Wigan/Saints
Douglas Blac
3
TODAY
Another Tigers Defeat As Rhinos Go Level Top
RLFANS News
1
TODAY
York - 14th April
PopTart
23
TODAY
Stats article
Sir Gregory
5
TODAY
21 man Squads - Devils v Leopards
WYSIWYG2
5
TODAY
Squad for Catalan
CW8
19
TODAY
The Wigan Way - New Podcast - Chairman Special
Jukesays
1
TODAY
Dons v Swinton Lions 30 June 2024
Wanderer
1
TODAY
Squad for Sheffield
AdamH
1
TODAY
London Away
Fartown58
1
TODAY
The Bulls away
terry silver
9
TODAY
The official Leon Hayes Thread
Smiffy27
18
TODAY
Saints a
Cherry_Warri
31
TODAY
Leon Ruan signs on loan
Jemmo
2
TODAY
Wardle
Jo Jumbuck
3
TODAY
Huddersfield - Home
Deadcowboys1
9
TODAY
Max Wood on loan to Bradford 2 weeks
rubber ducki
7
TODAY
Jake Wardle 5 Year deal
Zig
22
TODAY
No grade A for 2025 for Trinity
PopTart
40
TODAY
Cup Quarter Final TV Arrangements
RLFANS News
1
NEWS ITEMS
VIEWS
Early Season Double for Hull K..
85
Another Tigers Defeat As Rhino..
188
Cup Quarter Final TV Arrangeme..
611
2024 Challenge Cup Quarter Fin..
726
Easy Does It For The Dragons A..
603
Warrington Demolish London For..
708
Leigh Leopards Beat Plucky Fea..
766
Saints Triumph Over Disappoint..
750
Easy Win for the Wolves Over L..
985
Dragons Condemn Castleford To ..
946
Leigh Leopards Secure First Po..
1097
St Helens Tame The Rhinos To W..
1062
Wigan Warriors Come From Behin..
1132
Betfred Championship and Leagu..
1106
2024 Challenge Cup Sixth Round..
3889