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tvoc 
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Re: Eastmond to Bath RU confirmed : Sat Feb 19, 2011 8:10 pm  
Remarkable_Rhinos wrote:
I bet if he did name you five he could easily count them on one hand!


Even easier if he were from Castleford.
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Re: Eastmond to Bath RU confirmed : Sat Feb 19, 2011 9:05 pm  
Juan Cornetto wrote:
No I don't think that Drew got his full Scottish cap. I seem to remember he played in the trials and for South of Scotland so was close to becoming a full International.


Didn't stop you incorrectly including him before moving on to the non-Internationals.


Juan Cornetto wrote:
No I have said nothing to support your case. I simply listed eight England Internationals who became GB RL Internationals of note.


If only. You listed six + one who didn't make his full England RU debut until after leaving pro League + one that Rothman's has never even heard of (Thomas Holiday at Oldham?)

As far as making contributions of note for GB (as you claim) I'm not sure any made more than a literal hand full in total. Hardly what many would call 'GB Internationals of note.' Unless the note in question was hastily scribbled on the back of a beer mat during a pub quiz.

Juan Cornetto wrote:
In fact you also have to go back more than 2 decades to find more than a handful of Welsh Internationals that converted to League.


Post 1990:
Scott Gibbs (St Helens), Richard Webster (Salford), Mark Jones (Hull), Allan Bateman (Warrington), Rowland Phillips (Warrington), Scott Quinnell (Wigan)

Around 1989/1990: David Young (Leeds), Jonathan Griffiths (St Helens), John Devereux (Widnes), Paul Moriarty (Widnes), Jonathan Davies.

Juan Cornetto wrote:
There was a challange to name 5 England RU Internationals that coverted to League in the 70's, 80's & 90's. Well in my list are 3 (5 if you include the late 60's) that converted during that time to which I will add Mike Lampkowski (Wakefield Trinity) and Nigel Heslop who signed for Oldham in the 90's so that makes 5.


Which were the three from your original list of eight? Keith Fielding, John Bentley and which other?

Bev Risman - 60's
Ray French - 60's
Mike Coulman - 60's
Jim Brough - 20's
BJ Mather - Ineligable
Thomas Holiday - Does he even exist?

Juan Cornetto wrote:
Back in the pre-pro RU days, the reason that there were more Welsh RU International players than English that converted to League is nothing to do with what League could afford to pay or that the English RU produced less talented rugby players.

The motivation for the Welsh to convert was for better financial security as the typical Welsh International came from a poor mining background. Whereas the typical England RU International came from a wealthy / public school / establishment background with excellent future career prospects so money was not the motivation.


Yes I agree to an extent, although England RU did use to cap a hell of a lot of talentless dross (still probably do) who wouldn't have lasted five minutes in League. 'Can this lad play?' 'No, not really but his old school tie will look nice on the team photo.'

Juan Cornetto wrote:
However in the North of England there has always been a cross over and RU has been a rich breeding ground for many talented RL players who learnt their basic rugby in the RU code. eg Offiah, Atkinson etc


Yup don't disagree with that. Although some might argue what Offiah brought came more from the track than the rugby field. First time he played at Headingley he covered the width of the pitch and got tackled into touch .... twice and to much amusement amongst the 'A' crowd faithful. He soon learnt though and we weren't laughing much after that.

Just a pity that crossover was a one-way street for 100 years with players victimised for mixing with fellow amateurs.

Juan Cornetto wrote:
With the advent of pro RU the pendulum has swung in their favour for the converts. Whist it means we lose some of the most talented players it does have a side benefit that raises the profile of League on a National level.

With Jason Robinson and now Ashton our code gets TV & Press mentions every time they score. Add to this the success as RU coaches from former League players from Larder to Shaun Edwards it is not all bad news. Maybe some of the new Ashton/Robinson fans will realise that League produces some unique talent and star to follow our game as well.


At last something we can agree on ..... unsurprisingly as I said as much earlier in the thread.
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Re: Eastmond to Bath RU confirmed : Sat Feb 19, 2011 11:44 pm  
Has this been confirmed yet?

If as (seems certain) this goes ahead I hope he does well - as Tvoc says successful converts only serve to advertise our game.

However, I'm not confident - to me Eastmond has the hallmarks of a poorly thought out Union sighing (like Iestyn, Farrell, Paul etc)...where will he play? No chance of ever being a Union half back as the tactical difference between the games is so vast, little chance in the three-quarters as union has gone down the bigger is better route (eg Sonny-bill as a centre, ) so that leaves full back...does Eastmond have the kicking game to play there in Union? (I know Jason Robinson was a success playing mainly at full back but frankly he's a unique talent so not a viable comparison)

All in all I think it'll be a real shame if he goes to union - a real lost talent from a British RL point of view but likely to be a wasted talent in the other code (even if he is ultimately a sucess I can't see him ever using his full range of attacking talents in the kicking code)
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Re: Eastmond to Bath RU confirmed : Sun Feb 20, 2011 1:08 pm  
Omar Little wrote:
Has this been confirmed yet?


On the Sky coverage from Wheldon Road last night it made reference to a Saints official (could have even been Simmons) hoping Eastmond would declare his intentions soon. So it still sounds unofficial at the moment.

Omar Little wrote:
However, I'm not confident - to me Eastmond has the hallmarks of a poorly thought out Union sighing (like Iestyn, Farrell, Paul etc)...where will he play? etc


I tend to agree but I'm fairly ignorant when it comes to the bastardised version of League. If he goes I suspect he'll be back sooner rather than later.
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Re: Eastmond to Bath RU confirmed : Sun Feb 20, 2011 5:13 pm  
tvoc wrote:
Didn't stop you incorrectly including him before moving on to the non-Internationals..


Incorrect. I did not say Drew Broatch was an International. See my quote below.

"Wales RU of course produced a conveyor belt of talent and Scotland chipped in with a few as well - the great Dave Valentine (Huddersfield), Ronnie Cowan, Drew Broatch & Alan Tait etc"

You mentioned no timescale limitations!

However if you want another Scottish RU International convert then there is the actor Roy Kinnear's father Roy Muir Kinnear who also played 4 times for the British Lions before joining Wigan where he scores 81 tries in 182 games and also was a GB League international.


tvoc wrote:
If only. You listed six + one who didn't make his full England RU debut until after leaving pro League + one that Rothman's has never even heard of (Thomas Holiday at Oldham?) .

Which were the three from your original list of eight? Keith Fielding, John Bentley and which other?.




Wrong again tvoc: I listed 8 dual code internationals. See my quote below

"Apart from John Bentley there are several notable England RU internationals that converted to RL. - Bev Risman, (Leigh, Leeds) Mike Coulman (Salford), Keith Fielding (Salford). Barrie John Mather (Wigan & England Schools RU) If you go back futher you have Ray French (St Helens), and the great Leeds legend Jim Brough and Thomas Holliday (Oldham)"

Thomas Holliday played for Aspatria, captained Cumberland and was capped 7 times for England. He also went on the British Lions tour of South Africa.

Do keep up at the back tvoc- you really must get some better sources.

Barrie John Mather learnt his rugby playing Union and had proven International talent. He became an International at schoolboy level which I stated. He was in the same International (18 yr old) schoolboy side as Matt Dawson and Richard Hill and the only reason he did not get his full cap before converting to league was that he signed for Wigan the following year as a 19 year old! He later went on to get full caps in both League and Union. So he was a proven International - what is your point?

tvoc wrote:
As far as making contributions of note for GB (as you claim) I'm not sure any made more than a literal hand full in total. Hardly what many would call 'GB Internationals of note.' Unless the note in question was hastily scribbled on the back of a beer mat during a pub quiz..


What are you talking about?

All these were rugby players of note in both codes. The number of caps a player achieves is not the way to judge his talent. In bygone days their were few Internationals compared with today. You asked for "proven International talent" which all this list have.

eg: Fielding jointly holds the record for the most tries scored in an England RL match. He scored 253 tries in 319 games for Salford and 10 tries in 12 RL internationals. Plus he won the 1981 TV Superstars series final and the Challenge of Champions final in 1981 and finished 3rd in the 182 series final.


tvoc wrote:
Post 1990:
Scott Gibbs (St Helens), Richard Webster (Salford), Mark Jones (Hull), Allan Bateman (Warrington), Rowland Phillips (Warrington), Scott Quinnell (Wigan)

Around 1989/1990: David Young (Leeds), Jonathan Griffiths (St Helens), John Devereux (Widnes), Paul Moriarty (Widnes), Jonathan Davies..


Like I said you have to go back more than 2 decades to find more than a handful of Welsh Internationals that converted to League.
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Re: Eastmond to Bath RU confirmed : Sun Feb 20, 2011 5:42 pm  
tvoc wrote:
There were some right shinanigans with the dips and squat thrusts. Jonah Barrington springs to mind here for some reason. Much better watching David Hemery's facial contortions from his 6th dip onwards than Brian Jacks pecking bird impressions.



As I rememeber Brian Jacks judo career was ended by a very small girl. She threw him and did his back or something and that was it.

Now runs an hotel in Thailand apparantly.
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Re: Eastmond to Bath RU confirmed : Sun Feb 20, 2011 7:50 pm  
Juan Cornetto wrote:
Incorrect. I did not say Drew Broatch was an International. See my quote below.

"Wales RU of course produced a conveyor belt of talent and Scotland chipped in with a few as well - the great Dave Valentine (Huddersfield), Ronnie Cowan, Drew Broatch & Alan Tait etc"

You mentioned no timescale limitations!


What relevance to that point are timescales?

After your quoted bit above you immediately went on to say:
Juan Cornetto wrote:
In addition to the dual code internationals there have been many local players who came to RL from Union and became top League players Derek Hallas, John Atkinson and Sid Hynes to name a few.


If I misunderstood your point re Broatch then I withdraw that comment.

Juan Cornetto wrote:
Wrong again tvoc: I listed 8 dual code internationals. See my quote below


I did see it the first time and I weren't overly impressed with it then either.

Juan Cornetto wrote:
"Apart from John Bentley there are several notable England RU internationals that converted to RL. - Bev Risman, (Leigh, Leeds) Mike Coulman (Salford), Keith Fielding (Salford). Barrie John Mather (Wigan & England Schools RU) If you go back futher you have Ray French (St Helens), and the great Leeds legend Jim Brough and Thomas Holliday (Oldham)"

Thomas Holliday played for Aspatria, captained Cumberland and was capped 7 times for England. He also went on the British Lions tour of South Africa.


How can Thomas Holliday be described as a 'dual code International' if he never played Internationally at Rugby League? What was his other International code, quidditch?

Re Mather - The discussion is supposed to be about ex England Internationals converting to League (I presume most would expect those to be full Internationals rather than including those with only schoolboy honours at the time of crossing the great divide - which would widen the scope)

Juan Cornetto wrote:
Do keep up at the back tvoc- you really must get some better sources.


Are you disputing the Rothmans Rugby League Yearbook and it's chief statistician Ray Fletcher? When did Thomas Holliday play for the GB Rugby League team? You've described him as 'dual code' (twice now) so when was it?

You may be right, just say when it was.

Juan Cornetto wrote:
Barrie John Mather learnt his rugby playing Union and had proven International talent. He became an International at schoolboy level which I stated. He was in the same International (18 yr old) schoolboy side as Matt Dawson and Richard Hill and the only reason he did not get his full cap before converting to league was that he signed for Wigan the following year as a 19 year old! He later went on to get full caps in both League and Union. So he was a proven International - what is your point?


You don't know that.

My point is he wasn't a full England RU player before he joined professional Rugby League (and that was basically what the discussion was about) so his inclusion was nothing more than a pointless diversion to bolster a low number. The number of ex-English RU Internationals to play League is still low even with his spurious inclusion. What he went on to achieve in RU Internationally after he left League is also fairly irrelevant to this code.

Juan Cornetto wrote:
What are you talking about?

All these were rugby players of note in both codes. The number of caps a player achieves is not the way to judge his talent. In bygone days their were few Internationals compared with today. You asked for "proven International talent" which all this list have.

eg: Fielding jointly holds the record for the most tries scored in an England RL match. He scored 253 tries in 319 games for Salford and 10 tries in 12 RL internationals. Plus he won the 1981 TV Superstars series final and the Challenge of Champions final in 1981 and finished 3rd in the 182 series final.


I'd like to see the stats re the number of International games played to back that assertion up. In 1975 (we'll call it Fielding's golden era) England played 10 games, I'd say that compared pretty favourably to the 4 England played in 2010.

You say 'all the list have' but only Keith Fielding appears above and a lot of that pertains to Superstars rather than RL unless I missed the bit where Les Dyl got in his canoe to score the winning try. Of course Fielding's record equalling haul for England RL in a match V France in '75 cannot be sniffed at. He gained 3 GB caps in total so will have been thankful when England and Wales seperated for the World Cup that year, giving him a look in without the additional competing of Sullivan, Bevan, Mathias or Richards for a place in the side. Not that he was able to hold off Atkinson, Dunn and Wright anyway. I'm not knocking Fielding he's at least a genuine 'dual code' International.

Juan Cornetto wrote:
Like I said you have to go back more than 2 decades to find more than a handful of Welsh Internationals that converted to League.


Define two decades and why specifically two decades anyway as opposed to lets say 25 years? You had four decades (70's, 80's, 90's 00's) to come up with five ex-England Internationals and you struggled (and probably failed?) to do that.

I did the equivalent with the ex-Welsh International lads with basically half the time-frame allowed as that given for England and for each additional five years I could probably add another handful. Give me 25 years (1986 to date) and I'll add Terry Holmes, Rob Ackerman, David Bishop and Gary Pierce to the eleven full Internationals mentioned higher up and I haven't yet added the name of Gareth Thomas.

Ex England Internationals either in terms of quantity or quality cannot by and large compare to the value added by the boyos from the Valleys.
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Re: Eastmond to Bath RU confirmed : Sun Feb 20, 2011 8:02 pm  
What's Alan Tait upto these days?
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Re: Eastmond to Bath RU confirmed : Sun Feb 20, 2011 8:14 pm  
flipper wrote:
What's Alan Tait upto these days?

He is/was coaching Newcastle Falcons mate although going by their results he could soon be on the dole with Andy Key of Carnegie.
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Re: Eastmond to Bath RU confirmed : Sun Feb 20, 2011 11:23 pm  
rhinoms wrote:
He is/was coaching Newcastle Falcons mate although going by their results he could soon be on the dole with Andy Key of Carnegie.

ta
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