tvoc wrote:
What relevance to that point are timescales? ..
Because your original point had no time restriction yet you later introduced one:
tvoc wrote:
I'm not sure the English RFU was such a rich breeding ground for RL although not entirely because of a lack of talent. There was not enough money in RL to tempt them. We tended to pick up the dissaffected, passed over talent rather than top proven International quality, I can't think of one of those..
And because you introduced a timescale when you tried to belittle my list of 8 England dual code Internationals when you stated " Given that in order to recall more than a single handful of Ex England RU Internationals you have had to go back
several decades"
tvoc wrote:
I did see it the first time and I weren't overly impressed with it then either.
How can Thomas Holliday be described as a 'dual code International' if he never played Internationally at Rugby League? What was his other International code, quidditch? .
Sorry these 8 dual code Internationals didn't come up to your standards tvoc!
Because he played for the England National Rugby League team. That is why he is known as a dual code International! Fact.
tvoc wrote:
Re Mather - The discussion is supposed to be about ex England Internationals converting to League (I presume most would expect those to be full Internationals rather than including those with only schoolboy honours at the time of crossing the great divide - which would widen the scope) .
Never presume!
Mather was an 18 yr old international who signed for Wigan when 19 yrs old. Most pundits belived he would have quickly gained a full England cap including Wigan RL who believed he was proven International quality. Make no mistake to get into the 18yr old England RU International side is some achievement.
Shaun Edwards captained England schoolboys at Union but did not gain a full England cap because he too signed for Wigan RL on his 17th birthday. Are you saying he too is not of proven International quality?
You cannot dismiss and rubbish England RU's contribution as a breeding ground for League on the premise of a lack of full International England RU caps. This is my point and going off on tangents does not hide the error of your statement.
tvoc wrote:
Are you disputing the Rothmans Rugby League Yearbook and it's chief statistician Ray Fletcher? When did Thomas Holliday play for the GB Rugby League team? You've described him as 'dual code' (twice now) so when was it? .
Well if you are to be believed their records are not complete are they?
I have to repeat Thomas Holliday played for England RL. Are you now saying this is not proven International quality?
tvoc wrote:
You don't know that.
My point is he wasn't a full England RU player before he joined professional Rugby League (and that was basically what the discussion was about) so his inclusion was nothing more than a pointless diversion to bolster a low number. The number of ex-English RU Internationals to play League is still low even with his spurious inclusion. What he went on to achieve in RU Internationally after he left League is also fairly irrelevant to this code..
We have been talking about International quality . You are trying to move the goalposts again. I have already given the reasons for a low conversion for England RU Internationals so this is not the argument.
How can you argue that Mather was not proven International quality when he was an 18 yr old RU International - converted to League at 19 - became a League International - returned to Union and got his full Union International cap. To say other wise makes a nonsense of your definition of quality.
tvoc wrote:
[I'd like to see the stats re the number of International games played to back that assertion up. In 1975 (we'll call it Fielding's golden era) England played 10 games, I'd say that compared pretty favourably to the 4 England played in 2010.
..
Why are you now quoting Union Internationals? Your comment was relating to RL not Union. See your quote below:
tvoc wrote:
As far as making contributions of note for GB (as you claim) I'm not sure any made more than a literal hand full in total. Hardly what many would call 'GB Internationals of note.' Unless the note in question was hastily scribbled on the back of a beer mat during a pub quiz...
My point was in reply to your above comment belittling these dual code Internationals. I repeat there were certainly less Internationals in bygone days. Prove me wrong?
tvoc wrote:
[I'm not knocking Fielding he's at least a genuine 'dual code' International...
Which from my list of 8 dual code Internationals were not genuine? I know there is one who you were unaware of, are the others just ones you don't like then and does this make then not genuine?
tvoc wrote:
[Define two decades and why specifically two decades anyway as opposed to lets say 25 years? You had four decades (70's, 80's, 90's 00's) to come up with five ex-England Internationals and you struggled (and probably failed?) to do that...
I had named 5 England RU Internationals who converted to League from the 70's 80's & 90's which was a challange from totalloiner. Thes players converted in three decades not 4 as you incorrectly stated and I completed the challenge.
tvoc wrote:
[Ex England Internationals either in terms of quantity or quality cannot by and large compare to the value added by the boyos from the Valleys.
[/quote]
Well here we agree. But that was not the main argument was it?