Re: WCC : Sun Feb 21, 2016 12:48 am  

loiner81 wrote: No they haven't won the last 6 WCC games. They've won the last 3, which is frustrating enough although one of those was a measly 4 point win over Leeds. I'd suggest you look up what the phrase "pot and kettle" means before you use it again. But anyway, hoping for a win but predicting a probable defeat against the NRL champions when almost half your first team's missing isn't an excuse and if said NRL team came over with that many players out they've be accused of not taking the game seriously, by you and Wiliam "stuck in the past" Eve to name but two. If Leeds had their first choice 17 out and beat a NQL team missing 7+ first choice players you and that sad old troll would be the first ones on here belittling the win. I think you're getting confused, unless you're now claiming the 4N doesn't matter? http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-league/29798697 Like I said, finger tips... That hardly backs up your earlier post about how much better the super duper Aussies are does it... Wow. Do you realise just how much of a patronising **** that makes you sound? Of course i'm looking forward to watching JT do his thing but there's still a trophy up for grabs so i'm there to support my team first and foremost, however much the odds are stacked against them. I could care less about Football so no, I wouldn't go watch Leeds UTD even if Messi was there. Sorry if that makes me a lesser person than you. And please do tell... Who's this "pale imitation of the real deal" you're referring to? . Pale imitation - there isn't a genuine world class/great player in SL - all those that you call great are pale imitations of the very best the NRL has to offer - the WCS has shown the gulf - even you must be able to see that. Sam Tomkins is possible the best player in SL he struggled to retain his place in the NRL - the Warriors were fighting to keep him when he decided the comp was too tough for him. So when was the last time we beat the Aussies is a world cup or a series - 1972 so get real about how close we are when it really matters and yes I am saying the 4N doesn't have the same significance as the WC or a three match series - it mattered so much to the Aussies they decided not to bother in 2015!! Kettle and pot - you accused me of potentially making excuses if the Aussies got beat but in the same breath suggested Leeds have little chance because of injuries - I would suggest kettle and pot are very apt!! Tomorrow is a glorified friendly with a trophy a bit like the Lazenby Cup for grown ups - do you think if Leeds lose this it will mean as much as losing the CC or Gf - of course not. It has no gravitas that is why it is great to focus on other things than wether Leeds win or not - I would suggest you take a similar view point otherwise you might go in to a serious decline

loiner81 wrote: No they haven't won the last 6 WCC games. They've won the last 3, which is frustrating enough although one of those was a measly 4 point win over Leeds. I'd suggest you look up what the phrase "pot and kettle" means before you use it again. But anyway, hoping for a win but predicting a probable defeat against the NRL champions when almost half your first team's missing isn't an excuse and if said NRL team came over with that many players out they've be accused of not taking the game seriously, by you and Wiliam "stuck in the past" Eve to name but two. If Leeds had their first choice 17 out and beat a NQL team missing 7+ first choice players you and that sad old troll would be the first ones on here belittling the win. I think you're getting confused, unless you're now claiming the 4N doesn't matter? http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-league/29798697 Like I said, finger tips... That hardly backs up your earlier post about how much better the super duper Aussies are does it... Wow. Do you realise just how much of a patronising **** that makes you sound? Of course i'm looking forward to watching JT do his thing but there's still a trophy up for grabs so i'm there to support my team first and foremost, however much the odds are stacked against them. I could care less about Football so no, I wouldn't go watch Leeds UTD even if Messi was there. Sorry if that makes me a lesser person than you. And please do tell... Who's this "pale imitation of the real deal" you're referring to? . Pale imitation - there isn't a genuine world class/great player in SL - all those that you call great are pale imitations of the very best the NRL has to offer - the WCS has shown the gulf - even you must be able to see that. Sam Tomkins is possible the best player in SL he struggled to retain his place in the NRL - the Warriors were fighting to keep him when he decided the comp was too tough for him. So when was the last time we beat the Aussies is a world cup or a series - 1972 so get real about how close we are when it really matters and yes I am saying the 4N doesn't have the same significance as the WC or a three match series - it mattered so much to the Aussies they decided not to bother in 2015!! Kettle and pot - you accused me of potentially making excuses if the Aussies got beat but in the same breath suggested Leeds have little chance because of injuries - I would suggest kettle and pot are very apt!! Tomorrow is a glorified friendly with a trophy a bit like the Lazenby Cup for grown ups - do you think if Leeds lose this it will mean as much as losing the CC or Gf - of course not. It has no gravitas that is why it is great to focus on other things than wether Leeds win or not - I would suggest you take a similar view point otherwise you might go in to a serious decline

Re: WCC : Sun Feb 21, 2016 12:53 am  

Sal Paradise wrote:

You attend so few games I would be embarrassed to call myself a RL supporter - so don't try and demean those of us who spend our hard earned on supporting the team home and away despite the opportunity cost of doing so!!

In a game there are a few bits of individual brilliance - that is what you remember about a game - what do you remember from watching the Saints semi on TV - I bet it was Sinfield's 40/20 that is why we keep going to games - small nuances of individual brilliance!!

I am sure you have watched the last two WCS games on the TV as you will the game tomorrow - one thing even you should have noticed is the best players in the key positions seldom ever get to SL - have any of the starting 1.6.7.9.13 of Brisbane, Roosters or NQ ever played in SL?

No one is suggesting the SL clubs are rubbish - but even Stevie Wonder can see - there is a significant gap in standard between the NRL and SL - about 30 points if the last two games are anything to go by - the fact you fail to acknowledge that says much about your understanding of the game.

William is a great supporter of the amateur game - it has many faults but without it you would not have the likes of Sinfield, McGuire and Peacock - just think how much better they would be if the amateur game had the resources and support its enthusiasm deserves. William recognises how hard these clubs work so he attends a host of amateur games - pity you haven't got enough about you to do likewise. Not much chance given you can be bothered to attend the games of a team you claim to support so passionately

I liked to know why you think you know how many games I go to both professional and amateur, you stalking me?

Re: WCC : Sun Feb 21, 2016 6:12 am  

craigizzard wrote:

The NRL's version of Tomkins? It was the first game Ferguson had ever played at fullback. In contrast NQ's fb Coote is really solid under the high ball. Not saying it shouldn't be part of our tactics, but the lessons you can learn by comparing one team to another are minimal.

Ferguson has spent more of his career at FB than he has at Centre indeed he only switched to Centre when he joined the Chooks because they had Minichello then RTS playing there.

Re: WCC : Sun Feb 21, 2016 8:13 am  

I really don't agree with all this rubbish on the amateur game, and the Aussies youngsters are better than ours. Yes, there is coaches that win at all costs rather than development, but that happens at Super League too.

We match the Aussies all the way with lads up to 16. We have quality players in this country, and a lot of those amateur coaches put a lot of hard work in to aid that development. Where we lose it big style is the development of players once signed pro with clubs, 16-19. For some reason that quality is often coached out of them, and instead they are played in unfamiliar roles and have to work to a robotic system.

Some come out of this still with their natural quality intact. We still have these players in super league, we have plenty. Plenty of Super League players could walk into NRL sides given the opportunity, but as a percentage of players in the game that isn't anywhere close to how many NRL players would walk into our sides. But Super League is a far better competition than given credit for at times. We will just always have those average players making up the numbers, and it is those average ones where we are behind the Aussies.

Said it plenty of times, over the last decade Leeds have had plenty of average players, but also quality players, and we have been lucky that those average players have managed to get a performance out to work with the quality. That doesn't always happen.

Re: WCC : Sun Feb 21, 2016 8:57 am  

Sal Paradise wrote:

Pale imitation - there isn't a genuine world class/great player in SL - all those that you call great are pale imitations of the very best the NRL has to offer - the WCS has shown the gulf - even you must be able to see that. Sam Tomkins is possible the best player in SL he struggled to retain his place in the NRL - the Warriors were fighting to keep him when he decided the comp was too tough for him.

So when was the last time we beat the Aussies is a world cup or a series - 1972 so get real about how close we are when it really matters and yes I am saying the 4N doesn't have the same significance as the WC or a three match series - it mattered so much to the Aussies they decided not to bother in 2015!!

Kettle and pot - you accused me of potentially making excuses if the Aussies got beat but in the same breath suggested Leeds have little chance because of injuries - I would suggest kettle and pot are very apt!!

Tomorrow is a glorified friendly with a trophy a bit like the Lazenby Cup for grown ups - do you think if Leeds lose this it will mean as much as losing the CC or Gf - of course not. It has no gravitas that is why it is great to focus on other things than wether Leeds win or not - I would suggest you take a similar view point otherwise you might go in to a serious decline

See, this post sums up pretty much everything that's wrong with the sport over here. Fans like you who belittle our game time after time are a disgrace to the sport to be honest.

This rabbit in the headlight thing that Printer mentioned is true but it goes deeper. Eddie Hemmings did everything but curtsy the other night when interviewing Wayne Bennett, it was embarrassing. Yes they're better than us - at club level - everyone knows it but the way people like you, some in the media and many of our players act it's no wonder we keep falling short and if and when we do get close or pull off a win there's always an excuse like "they weren't trying" or they had too many players missing....

To say the 4N means nothing and to compare the WCC to the Lazenby Cup is just offensive to everyone involved in the game over here and down under.

Maybe you should think about joining William down the allotment... Preferably one where there's no wi-fi signal.

Re: WCC : Sun Feb 21, 2016 9:15 am  

Some fair points Gotcha - Having had personal experience of two boys going through the amateur system - one at Lock Lane and one at Kippax the quality of coaching can be very patchy. The commitment of amateur coaches should not be questioned but how do you focus on skill development and retain interest if the team never wins a game?

Clubs like Stunningly and Oulton seem to strike a very good balance between participation and excellence. Maybe AG is correct and the RFL should be in charge of development between the ages of 16-19 and only at that point are the players released to the clubs? That way you stop clubs developing players in a certain way to suit the needs of the club rather than player development.

To beat the Aussies we need a core of 10 high quality players in that 10 we must top players at 1,3,4,6,7 and 9 and this is where we struggle - Bateman at centre at international level isn't going to scare anyone.

Re: WCC : Sun Feb 21, 2016 9:54 am  

Apologies for being a bit spammy but it's too long for a forum post even by my (or Printer's) standards.

There's a piece on the four keys to a Rhinos win tonight up on my blog, see link in signature.

As you were...

Re: WCC : Sun Feb 21, 2016 10:49 am  

FFS! I just caught a bit of Monkey Life on TV too! Primates chucking sh.. at each other.
Stop bitching!
We need to look toward the RFL and it's inept management of the game, the lack of nurturing of young talent, the patchy skills focus for youngsters, the choke-hold on fresh money and ideas, the salary cap, the disrespect to the game via incompetent refs being held up as 'top flight', the laughable level of presentation via Sky - EH, MS , and the standard of coaching - does anyone really think that we have a full complement of top coaches in SL? We do have some world class players who must be sick to death of being put down, running into brick walls more often than the oncoming opposition. I fell in love with this game late, having grown up on soccer. What I love about this game is the athleticism, the skills, the teamwork, the passion and the heart. As I said earlier we are not on a level playing field in some of these areas BUT in some we sure are! We can aim higher. The lead should come from the top. IMO the Rhinos are the closest to being able to compete - everything about the club is worthy of respect from the financial management to the Foundation, to the team ethos, to the work ethic, to the involvement in schools, the interaction between players and the community, the focus on skills development for youngsters across the city and beyond,etc etc...
I hope we can compete tonight too. I know one thing for sure - the team will take to the pitch determined to do their best, despite the injuries, despite the previous cynicism, despite the constant hurdles put in the way of British clubs. If they pull it off great. If not then it will not be the end of the world or the WCC, but let it be the final kick up the backside of the RFL, which needs a wholesale change to progress, and can lead eventually to a more level playing field. Here's to a win!

Re: WCC : Sun Feb 21, 2016 10:52 am  

Andy Gilder wrote:

Probably the best sporting analogy for rugby league in the two hemispheres is British cycling and the rest of the world.

Under Dave Brailsford, GB cycling focused on the one percents. The marginal gains that on their own don't account for much, but put together help you to be ahead of your competition. Players in the NRL do everything to a marginally higher standard, but when combined and put into pressure situations those marginal gains make for significantly better teams.

NRL players grow up being coached to do the simple things to a very high standard before they get anywhere close to being in first grade. There are young players in the Academy systems at SL clubs who have massive gaps in their skill sets. They've got where they are primarily on the basis of their physical attributes and being quicker or stronger than counterparts in their age group. Had they come up in Australia, they wouldn't have got close to a professional contract due to the things they can't do. They would have had to work harder at their game to achieve a degree of success, because the bar is set so much higher than it is here.

How do you raise that bar? Make it harder for players to earn Academy contracts for a start, by reducing the number of Academies in existence through mergers. Let's take it down to say 8/10 across the country run by the RFL, make it harder for kids to get taken on so they feel they have to work at the deficiencies in their game. Create hothouses where there is pressure and competition for places from both a playing and coaching viewpoint.

Raise the age at which players can sign professional contracts to 18, and strictly enforce it. We all know that 16 year old kids (and in some cases their parents) are getting inducements to sign for clubs and signing "pre-contracts". What message does that send to kids at that age, other than "you've made it"? Give them something to aspire to while they are in the Academies at 16 and 17 years old, rather than feeling they don't have to work hard and kick on.

Rather than talking about raising the salary cap to enable the competition to retain a handful of top stars, work from the ground up to improve the standard of player coming into the competition from the bottom. You don't build a bigger, stronger pyramid by polishing the stone at the top. How good would it be to see 18/19/20 year old players coming into the SL competition capable of executing all the basic skills of the game in the way that say Nikorima did for the Roosters last night? Players aren't born with the ability to execute skills under pressure, they acquire it by having to work hard and practice in order to get to that point otherwise they won't get to play the professional game.

Isnt that simply going to keep more young 15/16/17 year olds playing at a lower level, in poorer facilities, with poorer coaching for longer?

And how does 8 academies fit to 12 (realistically for this system to work 24) sides? An independent development system seems incompatible with this system in my opinion.

i dont think that our problem stems from a lack of commitment or will to learn from 15/16/17 year old kids.

Re: WCC : Sun Feb 21, 2016 11:01 am  

Gotcha wrote:

I really don't agree with all this rubbish on the amateur game, and the Aussies youngsters are better than ours. Yes, there is coaches that win at all costs rather than development, but that happens at Super League too.

We match the Aussies all the way with lads up to 16. We have quality players in this country, and a lot of those amateur coaches put a lot of hard work in to aid that development. Where we lose it big style is the development of players once signed pro with clubs, 16-19. For some reason that quality is often coached out of them, and instead they are played in unfamiliar roles and have to work to a robotic system.

Some come out of this still with their natural quality intact. We still have these players in super league, we have plenty. Plenty of Super League players could walk into NRL sides given the opportunity, but as a percentage of players in the game that isn't anywhere close to how many NRL players would walk into our sides. But Super League is a far better competition than given credit for at times. We will just always have those average players making up the numbers, and it is those average ones where we are behind the Aussies.

Said it plenty of times, over the last decade Leeds have had plenty of average players, but also quality players, and we have been lucky that those average players have managed to get a performance out to work with the quality. That doesn't always happen.

Excellent post.

Athleticism is a significant component that's lacking in those average players. Their body shape is too bulky/top heavy when compared to the Broncos players.