Re: RD 4 | Huddersfield Giants : Tue Mar 08, 2016 11:00 am  

Sal Paradise wrote:

Those three players have a huge skill set to compensate - Lilley is playing in an inferior competition which will help but to compare him to Thurston/Cronk etc is stretching a point.

Thurstons breakout year was when he was 23, so was Cronks, lets see what Lilly's skill set is then, or is he already written off in your eyes?

Regaurding Sinfield, its a bit stupid to say you cant rate him as an all time great because he didnt play in the NRL, was Stacey Jones not a great because he never played origin?
Like I said previously, there is noone who has had a particualry good international career for England as the team was poorly coached and players were pushed in and out and into different positions
the fact he has caps at 6, 7, 9. 12, and 13 shows that
Yet, he still managed to captain his country, get a decent amount of caps, and become England highest EVER points scorer so it wasnt too shabby eh?

Re: RD 4 | Huddersfield Giants : Tue Mar 08, 2016 11:06 am  

Andy Gilder wrote:

He said he thought he should have put it through the hands. That isn't a criticism of Lilley, it's Sutcliffe saying he would have taken a different decision. Interesting that you've chosen to describe Sutcliffe in such derogatory terms, just to support your opinion. For "not the sharpest tool in the box" he's certainly shown plenty of game intelligence at different times in his career.

I said Sutty did not criticise Lilley. You said:

Andy Gilder wrote:
If you can point out where I criticised Lilley - other than for that one piece of decision making, an opinion shared by his half back partner at the touchscreen after the game by the way - I'd be grateful.

You did criticise Lilley and stated your opinion was shared by his half back partner at the touchscreen- just to support your opinion. You now have U-turned and agree with me that Sutty was not making a criticism of Lilley. In fact I took it to be a self-effacing comment, meaning he (like you) wouldn't have spotted the kicking option that Lilley took.

Having watched other players at the touchscreen including Thurston the other week, it is fair comment to say that Sutcliffe came over well below the standard set by the others. Now this may have been due to nerves or not as the case maybe but his comment shows the option he would have taken which has been rather like his play to date just moving the ball on with little variety. So my comment is valid.

Andy Gilder wrote:

Watch it back, there's a decoy runner (Ferres?) who just impedes a sliding defender enough for Lilley to get on his outside shoulder. This attracts in the defender next to McGillvray. At that point, having engaged the defender, Lilley could have passed and given Keinhorst a 2 on 1 with Hall outside him and just McGillvray to beat.

I have watched it back several times to check my opinion before posting. If you care to go through the whole sequence pausing second by second you will see that the defender inside McGillvray is standing legs apart and able to tackle Keinhorst right up until Lilley actually kicks the ball. So as I said it was the actual kick that engaged the defender and made it a 2 on 1 creating the space for Keinhorst to touch down.

You had stated there was a 3 on 2 which there never was. Glad to see you now agree with me that Lilley created a 2 on 1 by his run and kick.

Andy Gilder wrote:

That was the easier option and probably the percentage play, rather than the kick. In hindsight it came up for him. Doesn't mean it was the correct decision to make at the time.

Creative players have to make split second decisions to open up defenses which sometimes do not come off. What Lilley did shows a good rugby brain who used the decoy runner to continue a diagonal run to create options. The first option could have been to dummy and try and score himself but he did not have the pace and in any case the sliding defender had appeared outside our blocker and it was at that stage 3 on 3. (4.08 on the video highlights) So Lilley's choice was reduced to a pass or a kick. As it was 3 on 3 Lilley chose the kick which as he did it drew the middle defender of the 3 leaving space for Keinhorst to score.

You say the easy option was to pass, which is what Sutty would have done. But if you go through frame by frame you will see that the defender was only drawn as Lilley made the kick. Had the defender been drawn enough for Lilley to make a pass then the defender would have blocked the space for the kick.

So I maintain Lilley made the correct split second brave decision which is what I expect from a good half back and why despite his lack of pace he has some class.

Re: RD 4 | Huddersfield Giants : Tue Mar 08, 2016 11:07 am  

And black is once again white. I'll leave it there. Life's too short to try and sustain any kind of discussion with some people.

Re: RD 4 | Huddersfield Giants : Tue Mar 08, 2016 11:18 am  

Andy Gilder wrote:

And black is once again white. I'll leave it there. Life's too short to try and sustain any kind of discussion with some people.

You made a critical comment of Lilley that I challenged. I have provided the evidence which shows your critical opinion of Lilley to be harsh or even wrong on this occasion. Sorry you only prefer to sustain discussions with those that agree with you. I will leave it for others to check out the video.

Re: RD 4 | Huddersfield Giants : Tue Mar 08, 2016 11:32 am  

With all this talk of the speed of half backs, does anybody actually have any timings of the current crop over a distance compared to the likes of Burrow and Mcguire ten years ago? A significant difference may be that the relative speed of other players has increased more than the backs. Most people acknowledge the pace of the game has increased across the park so to keep the same speed difference between backs and forwards would not be possible.

When Mcguire and Burrow first made their appearances, they were still playing against other players who will have started their careers who started as semi-pros with other occupations and even much more recently (and still probably going on) we have seen full time players become full time profesionals. I would be supprised if there were more than a handful of players now who havent come up through the ranks who have had to take on other jobs to make ends meet.

Over the years backs have got relatively slower or others have got relatively faster and the game has once again reached a point where all half-backs can no longer rely on speed as much as they have previously been able to do and over the next five years we will see another shift in the way the game is played.

Re: RD 4 | Huddersfield Giants : Tue Mar 08, 2016 12:20 pm  

I accept that pace is not the only attribute but it helps make up for other shortcomings eg for Burrow. At the age of 16 Sinfield clearly had so many other qualities that in the English game more than made up for any lack of pace. I've yet to see Lilley exhibit those same qualities. But he could develop those in time.
I hope he does.
Sinfield also had the size to stand up to bigger players something that Lilley given his stature can't possess.

Re: RD 4 | Huddersfield Giants : Tue Mar 08, 2016 12:21 pm  

Juan Cornetto wrote:

Having watched other players at the touchscreen including Thurston the other week, it is fair comment to say that Sutcliffe came over well below the standard set by the others.

Sutcliffe is only 21. Most HBs are illegible until their mid-20s. Thurston could only grunt at that age. Give the kid some time, I can't believe the criticism of his diction on here from keyboard warriors. He'll sound like Stephen Fry after a couple of seasons. If you know what I mean.

Re: RD 4 | Huddersfield Giants : Tue Mar 08, 2016 12:43 pm  

tigertot wrote:

Sutcliffe is only 21. Most HBs are illegible until their mid-20s. Thurston could only grunt at that age. Give the kid some time, I can't believe the criticism of his diction on here from keyboard warriors. He'll sound like Stephen Fry after a couple of seasons. If you know what I mean.

I was not being critical of his written word or his diction. When the likes of teenagers like Lilley and Golding have been interviewed on TV they have come over as alert, quick and bright. I did not see this from Sutty at the touchscreen as Jon Wells had to work hard to get anything from him.

Re: RD 4 | Huddersfield Giants : Tue Mar 08, 2016 1:12 pm  

Juan Cornetto wrote:

I was not being critical of his written word or his diction. When the likes of teenagers like Lilley and Golding have been interviewed on TV they have come over as alert, quick and bright. I did not see this from Sutty at the touchscreen as Jon Wells had to work hard to get anything from him.

FFS! Really? You're critical of how a young rugby league player comes across on TV?

On a different topic, I was particularly upset at how Handley's shorts didn't seem to fit him snugly enough.

Also, why oh why don't our players wear those super pink boots?

Re: RD 4 | Huddersfield Giants : Tue Mar 08, 2016 1:29 pm  

Biff Tannen wrote:

I agree, he had his moments but not enough to regard him a success on the International stage unfortunately.

Sinfield had one good game against the Aussies at hooker in 2001. I think the Aussies had just got off the plane after cancelling the tour a few weeks prior? Mike Forshaw was scrum half IIRC... says it all really.

Biff Tannen wrote:

He was playing during an era of pretty poor England/GB sides though (2007-2012 we were particularly bad as a group imo), who were up against at times fantastic Aussie teams with the Queensland spine in their pomp, just something i think should be taken into consideration.Put Sinfield in that Aussie team i have no doubt he would have shone but he just didn't have the players around him, and Sinfield's game isn't built around virtuoso individualism. I also thought he was pretty good during his swansong the 2013 WC (last play aside) when we had a capable team who could get on the front foot which highlights what he may have been able to produce in years past had he had the personnel around him. All, if's buts and maybe's i know but things that need to be considered imo.

Sinfield has never been international class. You know that deep down even if it is difficult to acknowledge because in doing so, it is seen as disrespectful to a Rhinos legend playing at the level of Super League.

We've had poor international sides for as long as I can recall but at least some of our players have made an international impact... Schofield, Hanley, Graham, Burgess, Sculthorpe, Fielden (until he was chinned by Mason), etc.

Presenting the bloke with a Golden Boot for skippering England to a series win against Wales and France was embarrassing at worst and a joke at best. Some proprietor of League and Union magazines wished to flog a few thousand more of his stock.

When that critical moment arrived with just a few minutes to go in a World Cup semi final at Wembley, Sinfield as skipper, organiser and tactical kicker bottled it. He couldn't handle the pressure. And I'm not talking about gifting Shaun Johnson an opportunity for a skip and a jink to the try line either. It's was Sinfield's brainfart prior to that which created the conditions and circumstances for the defeat.