Re: Segayaro : Tue Sep 06, 2016 9:17 pm  

SmokeyTA wrote:

We beat the best other three teams in the league. In succession. As well as beating the 2nd best team again. At the business end of the season. Yet we were struggling, not playing well. Crying out for PNG's 3rd best hooker to replace a player with 7 grand finals, 2 challenge cups, 3 WCC, 3 LLS, and 2 Harry Sunderland awards.

I mean its not like 5 weeks earlier Aiton had started a game against Wigan, you know when we were super duper unbeatable, before we were struggling, before we werent playing well, before we had to suffer Burrow at hooker.

Do you remember what the score was in that game? Surely we must have beaten them by 30-40 points considering how well we were playing and we had Aiton to be a proper hooker for us? and considering we could beat Wigan twice when we were struggling and not playing well, surely we walked that game?

If you want to base it solely on the final result then so be it. Can clearly see through that you issue isn't about Burrow at all it's just harping back to your moan last year about not liking Aiton.

If Burrow had been our starting hooker last year and no Aiton then we wouldn't have been 6 points clear heading into Wembley IMO and then the end of the season looks very different. If you want results, Aiton was the starting hooker when we won 10 of our opening 11 to get away from the pack, he remained starting hooker to help get us to 1st spot after 23 Rounds, he was starting hooker in e previous cup matches before Wembley. He might not have been available for the end of the season but he was definitely hugely responsible for getting us there over the course of the year.

Re: Segayaro : Tue Sep 06, 2016 9:27 pm  

ThePrinter wrote:

If you want to base it solely on the final result then so be it. Can clearly see through that you issue isn't about Burrow at all it's just harping back to your moan last year about not liking Aiton.

If Burrow had been our starting hooker last year and no Aiton then we wouldn't have been 6 points clear heading into Wembley IMO and then the end of the season looks very different. If you want results, Aiton was the starting hooker when we won 10 of our opening 11 to get away from the pack, he remained starting hooker to help get us to 1st spot after 23 Rounds, he was starting hooker in e previous cup matches before Wembley. He might not have been available for the end of the season but he was definitely hugely responsible for getting us there over the course of the year.

You are right, Aiton was the hooker when we lost to Warrington, when we lost to Warrington again, when we lost to Widnes, when we drew with Huddersfield, When we lost to Wigan, When we lost to Wigan again, When we lost to Cas.

Burrow, playing for the team that was struggling, not playing well, beat Wigan, beat Wigan again, beat Huddersfield, and beat St Helens.

You know what, 7 grand finals, 2 challenge cups, 3 LLS, 3 WCC, and 2 Harry Sunderland trophies and yeah, im pretty comfortable basing it on final results. You and Paul Aiton with your 1 challenge cup (as a back up to guess who?) can judge it on something else if you want.

Re: Segayaro : Tue Sep 06, 2016 9:29 pm  

Lets get one thing right, Aiton is a decent hooker but not top bracket and i don't think many would argue he was anymore than that. The point is that he is a hooker who can defend well in the middle and does the fundamentals of hooking naturally which is what we lack when relying on Burrow for long periods. Is it also any coincidence players like Watkins who are not having to put in as big a defensive shifts as when hiding Burrow seem to look far more potent and energetic with ball in hand?

Even if we manage to secure Segeyaro im with others who would still like to see a deputy who is capable of stepping straight into his shoes if he gets an injury and keep Burrow solely for the impact role which still does so well and can continue being a match winner in.

Re: Segayaro : Tue Sep 06, 2016 9:47 pm  

ThePrinter wrote:

I imagine the reason it's not announced yet is because we haven't secured safety yet, he obviously won't stay if we were in the Championship.

100% right mate! Also add in some kind of marketing campaign; T-shirts, shirts, season tickets, lunch box, pots n pans?

Gary seldom misses a chance to sell our club and so he should.

Re: Segayaro : Tue Sep 06, 2016 9:50 pm  

SmokeyTA wrote:

You are right, Aiton was the hooker when we lost to Warrington, when we lost to Warrington again, when we lost to Widnes, when we drew with Huddersfield, When we lost to Wigan, When we lost to Wigan again, When we lost to Cas.

Burrow, playing for the team that was struggling, not playing well, beat Wigan, beat Wigan again, beat Huddersfield, and beat St Helens.

You know what, 7 grand finals, 2 challenge cups, 3 LLS, 3 WCC, and 2 Harry Sunderland trophies and yeah, im pretty comfortable basing it on final results. You and Paul Aiton with your 1 challenge cup (as a back up to guess who?) can judge it on something else if you want.

Burrow started the Widnes away game actually and again he didn't even get off the bench until the 2nd half in the Wigan Super 8's game when we were already 20-4 so I don't know why you're clinging onto that one.

The thing is no one is staying Burrow starting there can't work on occasion/s. But doing it for 3 weeks is much different to doing it for 30 weeks. And it's not about who is the better player individually, it's about who add the better balance to the team. Doesn't leave centres having to defend like 2nd rowers, doesn't have your middle guys having to make up the 30/40 tackles your hooker would make, has better passing and organising from dummy half so that your props can get you further downfield and give your HB's crisper ball.

I find it very similar to the Wayne Rooney debate for England. For me he is the big problem for that team. Some will defend him saying he was one of our better players on Sunday because he picked up the ball a lot and did a lot of passing.....however it completely messed up the balance of the side. His insistence to drop so deep made Kane struggle as he was left isolated, the defence wasn't having to worry about the man-in-the-hole number 10 position so impacts on the wingers and he's sat on top of your other central midfielders taking their job off them. His performance might have looked good to some if judging solely on what he did, but for the negative issues he caused his teammates then it was the main problem.

RL like football is a TEAM sport, picking a team should be about balance, everyone has their role to fulfill in defence and attack, it shouldn't be the case where some are hampered by doing the workload of others.

Re: Segayaro : Tue Sep 06, 2016 9:57 pm  

Biff Tannen wrote:

Lets get one thing right, Aiton is a decent hooker but not top bracket and i don't think many would argue he was anymore than that. The point is that he is a hooker who can defend well in the middle and does the fundamentals of hooking naturally which is what we lack when relying on Burrow for long periods. Is it also any coincidence players like Watkins who are not having to put in as big a defensive shifts as when hiding Burrow seem to look far more potent and energetic with ball in hand?

Even if we manage to secure Segeyaro im with others who would still like to see a deputy who is capable of stepping straight into his shoes if he gets an injury and keep Burrow solely for the impact role which still does so well and can continue being a match winner in.

Because it simply isnt true. To state it again, We beat everyone, at the business end of the season, with Burrow at hooker. We have managed to do so, many many times for over a decade.

The idea that our struggles this year, and our small struggles last year, are down to not having a 'proper hooker' simply arent born out by the facts. It has been proven, time and time and time and time again that we can and do win with Burrow at hooker, it has been proven with Millard, with Falloon, and
yes with Aiton, that swapping out Burrow for a 'proper hooker' doesnt result in victory.

I dont think Watkins looked any better outside Fallon, no more energetic, nor more potent, less if anything.

What Segeyaro has proven is that top bracket players will make us play better. But we arent going to get another top bracket hooker. We will get a Falloon, a Millard, or at best an Aiton, players worse that Burrow.

Re: Segayaro : Tue Sep 06, 2016 10:08 pm  

ThePrinter wrote:

Burrow started the Widnes away game actually and again he didn't even get off the bench until the 2nd half in the Wigan Super 8's game when we were already 20-4 so I don't know why you're clinging onto that one.

Because it is your argument, your point that we need a 'proper hooker' and that Aitons position as a 'proper hooker' made us play soooooo much better. Its simply not true.

The thing is no one is staying Burrow starting there can't work on occasion/s. But doing it for 3 weeks is much different to doing it for 30 weeks. And it's not about who is the better player individually, it's about who add the better balance to the team. Doesn't leave centres having to defend like 2nd rowers, doesn't have your middle guys having to make up the 30/40 tackles your hooker would make, has better passing and organising from dummy half so that your props can get you further downfield and give your HB's crisper ball.

But Aiton, and most 'proper hookers' dont make that difference. We know this for a fact. Burrow has been doing what Burrow does, whatever number is on his back, for 15 wildly successful years.

I find it very similar to the Wayne Rooney debate for England. For me he is the big problem for that team. Some will defend him saying he was one of our better players on Sunday because he picked up the ball a lot and did a lot of passing.....however it completely messed up the balance of the side. His insistence to drop so deep made Kane struggle as he was left isolated, the defence wasn't having to worry about the man-in-the-hole number 10 position so impacts on the wingers and he's sat on top of your other central midfielders taking their job off them. His performance might have looked good to some if judging solely on what he did, but for the negative issues he caused his teammates then it was the main problem.

RL like football is a TEAM sport, picking a team should be about balance, everyone has their role to fulfill in defence and attack, it shouldn't be the case where some are hampered by doing the workload of others.

England havent won 7 of the last 12 tournaments they played in with Rooney doing what Rooney does. If they had, and people will still arguing about his position people would think they were mental.

What it is closer to is Barcelona playing Messi as a false 9 and people still arguing about whether you can win without a proper number 9.

Re: Segayaro : Tue Sep 06, 2016 10:14 pm  

SmokeyTA wrote:

Because it simply isnt true. To state it again, We beat everyone, at the business end of the season, with Burrow at hooker. We have managed to do so, many many times for over a decade.

No we haven't because Burrow hasn't been playing at hooker for a decade. Most of the trophy haul you listed above is misleading in this argument because they came from playing in the halves. He started games at hooker in 2012 but we brought in Lunt who played an important role. 2013 we pretty much went with Burrow alone after McShane wasn't favoured and it was our only trophyless season under McDermott prior to this year. Burrow was the starter in 2014 with Aiton on the bench and we finish 6th in the table, Aiton was the starter in 2015 and Burrow on the bench and we finish 1st in the table.

Re: Segayaro : Tue Sep 06, 2016 10:17 pm  

Falloon was an absolute dud, goodness knows how he ever got a gig in the NRL but he offered us nothing. He wasn't good enough for the Championship, Aiton was miles better, so the fact he changed nothing is of no surprise at all.

Watkins looked far better first half of last year, he was ripping it up. No coincidence off the back of the quick plays, neat dummy half work and link up between Aiton and his forwards in second phase ball with offloads from the like of Cuthbertson (another whos game has fallen away since then surprise surprise) giving him space and early ball. So Watkins then became a tackling machine again for the last few weeks when we forced to go back to Burrow. Not his fault, but annoying having your rolls royce attacking weapon having to do donkey work to hide others imo.

Again, Burrow is a great player and like Printer said, one you wouldn't mind having to cover for the odd game here or there. But, for the benefit of the TEAM moving forward we need... yes you've guessed it, 'a proper hooker' as often as possible

Re: Segayaro : Tue Sep 06, 2016 10:28 pm  

ThePrinter wrote:

No we haven't because Burrow hasn't been playing at hooker for a decade. Most of the trophy haul you listed above is misleading in this argument because they came from playing in the halves. He started games at hooker in 2012 but we brought in Lunt who played an important role. 2013 we pretty much went with Burrow alone after McShane wasn't favoured and it was our only trophyless season under McDermott prior to this year. Burrow was the starter in 2014 with Aiton on the bench and we finish 6th in the table, Aiton was the starter in 2015 and Burrow on the bench and we finish 1st in the table.

Put whatever number you want on his back, Burrow is playing how Burrow plays. He isnt a different player because of the number on his back, same as Sinfield isnt turning in to Paul Gallen when he lined up at loose instead of in the halves. Even then he won a Harry Sunderland award as an impact hooker.

Players are players, not a list of skills that fit a certain position. Burrow was never more a proper half than he was a proper hooker. He was Rob Burrow.