Re: McDermott : Thu Sep 15, 2016 2:20 pm  

SmokeyTA wrote: Leeds see the amount of points conceded over the first 23 rounds rise by 16% 477 to 576 = 20.75% increase SmokeyTA wrote: Leeds go from the 6th best defence in the league to the 8th best defence in the league. 5th best to 9th best - source - tables available here: http://www.rugby-league.com/superleague/tables Otherwise the post pretty much checks out. The story of Leeds' season surely is one of not scoring enough points and of conceded too many, too often.

SmokeyTA wrote: Leeds see the amount of points conceded over the first 23 rounds rise by 16% 477 to 576 = 20.75% increase SmokeyTA wrote: Leeds go from the 6th best defence in the league to the 8th best defence in the league. 5th best to 9th best - source - tables available here: http://www.rugby-league.com/superleague/tables Otherwise the post pretty much checks out. The story of Leeds' season surely is one of not scoring enough points and of conceded too many, too often.

Re: McDermott : Thu Sep 15, 2016 2:45 pm  

SmokeyTA wrote:

Leeds see the amount of points conceded over the first 23 rounds rise by 16%

Leeds concede 99 points more than the previous year

Leeds see the amount of points scored over the first 23 rounds fall by 46%

leeds score 354 fewer points than the previous year

Leeds go from the best offence in the league by some distance to the worst offence in the league.

Leeds go from the 6th best defence in the league to the 8th best defence in the league.

Leeds concede fewer points in the first half of the year than the second half of the year.

Leeds fans astutely identify the defence in the first half of the year as the biggest issue the side faced and call for the sacking of the coach, congratulating themselves in forum circlejerk for their astuteness.

Defence isn't just about conceding points though, as odd as that may sound.

If your opponent is making silly meters every set through; missed tackles; getting in the offload, not pushing up in the line or meeting tackle with aggression; losing the collision/wrestle; getting mullered with quick PTB's; letting through half breaks; conceding daft penalties etc - you're going to lose a hell of a lot of field position over the course of a game, and therefore a high proportion of your 'attacks' are starting in your own 20m, a much harder position to score from.

Not all aspects of a game are covered on the Opta site.

I found when watching Leeds at the start of the year, similar to what FlexWheeler said, that the defence was all over the place. Poorly organised and constantly scrambling, teams seemingly making breaks for fun and the ruck was a joke. It tightened up massively later on, probably down to the returning players & graft in training, and the things I mentioned in the paragraph above being cut down. Field position over the game was restored and Leeds start getting the results.

Re: McDermott : Thu Sep 15, 2016 3:43 pm  

We've got all the right numbers just not necessarily in the right order, I'll give you that sunshine.

Re: McDermott : Thu Sep 15, 2016 3:54 pm  

Undoubtedly our defence was not good enough however it was our attack that suffered the greatest drop in performance compared to the previous year.

The number of tries scored was down by over 50% with try assists and goals down by just under 50%. Clean breaks were down by 43% and offloads by 26%. I know some on here do not like stats but these are big numbers and they tell a story. Penalties were up by 40% with the obvious loss of metres and possession.

Some say the best form of defence is to attack. Whilst this is a simplistic notion it does bear some truth. If you outscore the opposition you win the game no matter how many mistakes in defence you make. Last season we won many games by outscoring the opposition despite leaking points. eg HKR 40-30, Hudd 28-24, Wig 26-14, Cat 38-22, Cas 26-12, Wak 48-22, Sal 28-18, Wak 58-26, Hull 32-20, Cat 36-22 and we drew with Hudd 24 each. This season our defensive lapses have been more crucial because we lost matches by not creating scores when in a position to do so.

IMO there were several reason for this huge drop off in the effectiveness of our attack. The first and I think most important reason is that we did not replace our main playmaker and goal kicker as we should have. The second is the woeful injury list which hit the main strike weapon of our backs particular hard. The third reason is that too many of the senior squad under performed when they did get the chance to get on the field.

Re: McDermott : Thu Sep 15, 2016 4:17 pm  

DGM wrote:

Defence isn't just about conceding points though, as odd as that may sound.

If your opponent is making silly meters every set through; missed tackles; getting in the offload, not pushing up in the line or meeting tackle with aggression; losing the collision/wrestle; getting mullered with quick PTB's; letting through half breaks; conceding daft penalties etc - you're going to lose a hell of a lot of field position over the course of a game, and therefore a high proportion of your 'attacks' are starting in your own 20m, a much harder position to score from.

Not all aspects of a game are covered on the Opta site.

I found when watching Leeds at the start of the year, similar to what FlexWheeler said, that the defence was all over the place. Poorly organised and constantly scrambling, teams seemingly making breaks for fun and the ruck was a joke. It tightened up massively later on, probably down to the returning players & graft in training, and the things I mentioned in the paragraph above being cut down. Field position over the game was restored and Leeds start getting the results.

I think you have fallen in to the same trap as some others here. I don't disagree that in principle, defence for all the reasons you list can be a secondary factor for marginal differences in offence. And of course vice versa.

And again, lets not forget that those secondary and marginal differences in offence, then go on to effect the defence, so a leeds team which scored far less, which dropped an awful lot of ball, which struggled with any kind of long or short kicking game and whose last tackle options all year have been terrible, caused that defence to defend more often, in worse positions.

But we arent looking at secondary factors for marginal changes. We are looking at an offence that scored nigh on half the points in did in the previous season. There is no way on earth that the problems the defence is responsible in any meaningful part for that. There is no way that Leeds scored half the number of points they did the previous season because they started more sets on their own 20. Its a ludicrous assertion.

Leeds scored half the number of points they did for very clear and obvious reasons, our last tackle options were terrible, and we made far far far too many errors with ball in hand.

If we had to blame one area of the game for our troubles, watch the 52-18 loss to Warrington and then tell me our problems originate in the defence and the not the offence.

Re: McDermott : Thu Sep 15, 2016 4:27 pm  

SmokeyTA wrote:

If we had to blame one area of the game for our troubles, watch the 52-18 loss to Warrington and then tell me our problems originate in the defence and the not the offence.

The game where Warrington gained nearly 400 more metres than us with only 12 more carries, they had 15 clean breaks and we missed 46 tackles?

Re: McDermott : Thu Sep 15, 2016 4:54 pm  

SmokeyTA wrote:

The goal post changing starts. The defence hasn't now been bad this year, it has been bad for a certain cherry picked portion of the year.

Hmmmm, wonder why I highlighted the FIRST HALF of the season......

SmokeyTA wrote:

Leeds fans astutely identify the defence in the first half of the year as the biggest issue the side faced.

You yourself admit that the debate is about the FIRST HALF of the season, hence why I highlighted the defensive numbers for the FIRST HALF of the season. The only person cherry picking numbers is you by including stats from the likes of Rounds 21/22/23 which can't be classified as FIRST HALF of the season.

So even though you've admitted that the debate was about the FIRST HALF of the season you're now wriggling because someone actually listed numbers for the FIRST HALF of the season and didn't sweeten them with better numbers for his argument from the 2nd half of the season.

Keep digging lad.

Re: McDermott : Thu Sep 15, 2016 4:56 pm  

WF Rhino wrote:

The game where Warrington gained nearly 400 more metres than us with only 12 more carries, they had 15 clean breaks and we missed 46 tackles?

Yeah, the game where we went in at half time 18-12 down having conceded the first from Delany knocking on in our own twenty, the second starting with a knock on on the 5th from McGuire, the 4th built from a nothing kick from the halfway line to touch. 6th a pass thrown in to touch. 7th from JJB getting stripped on the 4th, the game when Hardaker dropped it running in to his own man on the first infront of the posts and in the middle of the worst of Watkins soap hands.

Watch that game and see how many of their tries came from sets we failed to complete, how many times we threw the ball to ground or touch, how many errors we made in attack,

Re: McDermott : Thu Sep 15, 2016 5:02 pm  

ThePrinter wrote:

Hmmmm, wonder why I highlighted the FIRST HALF of the season......

You yourself admit that the debate is about the FIRST HALF of the season, hence why I highlighted the defensive numbers for the FIRST HALF of the season. The only person cherry picking numbers is you by including stats from the likes of Rounds 21/22/23 which can't be classified as FIRST HALF of the season.

So even though you've admitted that the debate was about the FIRST HALF of the season you're now wriggling because someone actually listed numbers for the FIRST HALF of the season and didn't sweeten them with better numbers for his argument from the 2nd half of the season.

Keep digging lad.

Why you lying tho?

ThePrinter wrote:

The total points conceded is helped massively by the final 7 games of the regular season (23 Rounds). We averaged just 14.8 in those 7 games, in the opening 16 rounds the figure was 29.5 (which if we carried on at that rate we would've conceded over 200 points more than 2015). Last year we conceded on average 20.5 during the opening 23 rounds.

So posters saying the defence was poor during the first half of the year does actually stand up with figures, as well as being plainly obvious just by watching what was happening on the pitch.

ill just point out again, we conceded fewer points in the first half of the season than the second.

Re: McDermott : Thu Sep 15, 2016 5:05 pm  

Defence was disorganised and too soft too often, attack was disorganised and innefective.
If those statements are correct then it would surely have resulted in a terrible record breakingly bad season. And it did.