Re: RD 7 | Warrington Wolves (H) : Wed Apr 10, 2024 2:32 am  

I don't think its individual players alone though, its the whole tactical setup which isn't working. Peter Smith, in his usual 'I don't want to upset the club/coach' way alluded to that today - including the short kick-off nonsense.

Some of what Rohan wants to see is laudable - open, free flowing games - but he needs to stop hoping that everyone else will come round to his view of the world and adapt to what actually happens on the pitch, where, rather unshockingly to anyone who has watched more than one game, possession and field position matter. That means not making errors, not gifting possession and field position through short kick offs and the like, and trying to play the game at the right end of the field through defence and a good kicking game. Ask Wayne Bennett, Craig Bellamy or any other coach, and that would be where they'd start.

Rohan developed this style on the run in 2022 and it was remarkably successful as it was different and other teams couldn't quite work it out. But as we saw last year, giving away field position encourages even the worst teams to think they have a chance, and practically invites better ones to give you a thumping. Its been worked out, and now is a weakness rather than a strength.

If its not a deliberate tactic that's just as big an indictment on Smith (or even bigger) because it means the players aren't doing what he wants them to. Either way I don't see him lasting beyond this year if he cannot or will not make changes. We saw last year how the season can really slip away if you don't keep picking up wins, as we kept waiting for the magical turnaround, but it never happened. We were 'competing', or 'in the contest', but consistently losing too many games. Reading the room (i.e. this forum and elsewhere) the fanbase has zero patience for a repeat of last season's damp squib of an effort.

Re: RD 7 | Warrington Wolves (H) : Wed Apr 10, 2024 7:38 am  

I just feel like you're all working yourself into a frenzy over "passive" defence - I think RS coaches for energy efficiency and trying to work the percentages at times, but something's going wrong in either the application of this, or the players' execution (i.e. errors).

Short kick-offs: favourite topic. So it does actually work to regain possession and position sometimes, and the win is significant when you pull it off. Statistically you take some losses turning the ball over on the opposition 40m rather than 20m. It's less far for your team to run up in D. It legitimately has some benefits. The problem has come where we have failed to defend the opposition coming up with the ball off the kick, or where we have overused the tactic/used it in the wrong situations. Whether this is coached or whether it's poor play selection by players none of us here really know. Miller attempting a 10m short kick-off from a drop-out when we're under pressure is crazy - I don't know what's going wrong there.

Last season we lost Leeming early to a spat dummy, we had Austin clearly causing problems throughout until it all came to a head, and MacDonald just disappeared (who does that?). We also had an epic injury list. I'm not saying RS got everything right either, but again there were legitimate reasons for poor results last season which were specific to last season. This forum is going to be pretty dire if we have about five threads running at the same time all year, each of which is ten blokes complaining about Rohan Smith.

Re: RD 7 | Warrington Wolves (H) : Wed Apr 10, 2024 8:48 am  

Once were Loiners wrote:

I don't think its individual players alone though, its the whole tactical setup which isn't working. Peter Smith, in his usual 'I don't want to upset the club/coach' way alluded to that today - including the short kick-off nonsense.

Some of what Rohan wants to see is laudable - open, free flowing games - but he needs to stop hoping that everyone else will come round to his view of the world and adapt to what actually happens on the pitch, where, rather unshockingly to anyone who has watched more than one game, possession and field position matter. That means not making errors, not gifting possession and field position through short kick offs and the like, and trying to play the game at the right end of the field through defence and a good kicking game. Ask Wayne Bennett, Craig Bellamy or any other coach, and that would be where they'd start.

Rohan developed this style on the run in 2022 and it was remarkably successful as it was different and other teams couldn't quite work it out. But as we saw last year, giving away field position encourages even the worst teams to think they have a chance, and practically invites better ones to give you a thumping. Its been worked out, and now is a weakness rather than a strength.

If its not a deliberate tactic that's just as big an indictment on Smith (or even bigger) because it means the players aren't doing what he wants them to. Either way I don't see him lasting beyond this year if he cannot or will not make changes. We saw last year how the season can really slip away if you don't keep picking up wins, as we kept waiting for the magical turnaround, but it never happened. We were 'competing', or 'in the contest', but consistently losing too many games. Reading the room (i.e. this forum and elsewhere) the fanbase has zero patience for a repeat of last season's damp squib of an effort.

Spot on.

Re: RD 7 | Warrington Wolves (H) : Wed Apr 10, 2024 8:54 am  

KaeruJim wrote:

I just feel like you're all working yourself into a frenzy over "passive" defence - I think RS coaches for energy efficiency and trying to work the percentages at times, but something's going wrong in either the application of this, or the players' execution (i.e. errors).

Short kick-offs: favourite topic. So it does actually work to regain possession and position sometimes, and the win is significant when you pull it off. Statistically you take some losses turning the ball over on the opposition 40m rather than 20m. It's less far for your team to run up in D. It legitimately has some benefits. The problem has come where we have failed to defend the opposition coming up with the ball off the kick, or where we have overused the tactic/used it in the wrong situations. Whether this is coached or whether it's poor play selection by players none of us here really know. Miller attempting a 10m short kick-off from a drop-out when we're under pressure is crazy - I don't know what's going wrong there.

Last season we lost Leeming early to a spat dummy, we had Austin clearly causing problems throughout until it all came to a head, and MacDonald just disappeared (who does that?). We also had an epic injury list. I'm not saying RS got everything right either, but again there were legitimate reasons for poor results last season which were specific to last season. This forum is going to be pretty dire if we have about five threads running at the same time all year, each of which is ten blokes complaining about Rohan Smith.

Good points well made Jim. I think in general a lot of fans are just fatigued by the last few years and the very poor season last year, which as you say had various mitigating circs. RS simply has to deliver a good competitve season this year as most of us on here agreed at the season start, even the most glass half full people on here agreed. So far it's looking pretty precarious, we're 8th, lost 3 home games on a row, out of the cup and have key players like Handley injured and are light up front... it's 50/50 at the moment where this season is going and many fans are losing faith in RS. There's not a fans forum in the world that doesn't moan about their coaches/managers/Chief Execs etc... it's just human nature and sport.

The team could well click into gear and go on a good run and get into top 5 top 4 you never know, it would take a lot of injury luck as we're light in depth in the backs and up from but lets hope so..

Re: RD 7 | Warrington Wolves (H) : Wed Apr 10, 2024 2:57 pm  

Yep agree mate. I just think it’s still too early to judge RS on this season - we’ve had a couple of wins and decent results, then a couple of ordinary performances and a bad one against Wire.

I’m not entirely convinced he’s got the squad right this year still, question for me is whether it’s close enough to find some form, or close enough to add 2-3 good players next year and bridge the gap.

I think we’re all sick of mediocrity on the pitch over a very long period of time… In fact at times mediocrity would have been a gift!

Re: RD 7 | Warrington Wolves (H) : Wed Apr 10, 2024 5:42 pm  

KaeruJim wrote:

I just feel like you're all working yourself into a frenzy over "passive" defence - I think RS coaches for energy efficiency and trying to work the percentages at times, but something's going wrong in either the application of this, or the players' execution (i.e. errors).

Short kick-offs: favourite topic. So it does actually work to regain possession and position sometimes, and the win is significant when you pull it off. Statistically you take some losses turning the ball over on the opposition 40m rather than 20m. It's less far for your team to run up in D. It legitimately has some benefits. The problem has come where we have failed to defend the opposition coming up with the ball off the kick, or where we have overused the tactic/used it in the wrong situations. Whether this is coached or whether it's poor play selection by players none of us here really know. Miller attempting a 10m short kick-off from a drop-out when we're under pressure is crazy - I don't know what's going wrong there.

Last season we lost Leeming early to a spat dummy, we had Austin clearly causing problems throughout until it all came to a head, and MacDonald just disappeared (who does that?). We also had an epic injury list. I'm not saying RS got everything right either, but again there were legitimate reasons for poor results last season which were specific to last season. This forum is going to be pretty dire if we have about five threads running at the same time all year, each of which is ten blokes complaining about Rohan Smith.

I wouldn't say I'm in a "frenzy", but I dislike the way we are defending. This line speed is way too slow.
The successful teams, at the top of the table, have far greater line speed than us and put pressure on the opposition.
Go figure.

And that's a long list of excuses for an awful season last year.
Fair enough on most of them.

RS now has his own team and we have spent heavily on bringing in the players he wanted.
We have had the odd injury, but have mostly had a comparatively pretty fit squad to choose from.
We're 8th.
What are this seasons excuses?

Re: RD 7 | Warrington Wolves (H) : Wed Apr 10, 2024 7:19 pm  

KaeruJim wrote:

I just feel like you're all working yourself into a frenzy over "passive" defence - I think RS coaches for energy efficiency and trying to work the percentages at times, but something's going wrong in either the application of this, or the players' execution (i.e. errors).

Short kick-offs: favourite topic. So it does actually work to regain possession and position sometimes, and the win is significant when you pull it off. Statistically you take some losses turning the ball over on the opposition 40m rather than 20m. It's less far for your team to run up in D. It legitimately has some benefits. The problem has come where we have failed to defend the opposition coming up with the ball off the kick, or where we have overused the tactic/used it in the wrong situations. Whether this is coached or whether it's poor play selection by players none of us here really know. Miller attempting a 10m short kick-off from a drop-out when we're under pressure is crazy - I don't know what's going wrong there.



Last season we lost Leeming early to a spat dummy, we had Austin clearly causing problems throughout until it all came to a head, and MacDonald just disappeared (who does that?). We also had an epic injury list. I'm not saying RS got everything right either, but again there were legitimate reasons for poor results last season which were specific to last season. This forum is going to be pretty dire if we have about five threads running at the same time all year, each of which is ten blokes complaining about Rohan Smith.

It is far worse the two of you trying to defend the indefensible

Re: RD 7 | Warrington Wolves (H) : Wed Apr 10, 2024 8:52 pm  

Deeply flawed way of defending, bored and dismayed seeing it every week.

Trigger needs to be pulled on Rohan.

Re: RD 7 | Warrington Wolves (H) : Wed Apr 10, 2024 8:56 pm  

KaeruJim wrote:

Yep agree mate. I just think it’s still too early to judge RS on this season - we’ve had a couple of wins and decent results, then a couple of ordinary performances and a bad one against Wire.

I’m not entirely convinced he’s got the squad right this year still, question for me is whether it’s close enough to find some form, or close enough to add 2-3 good players next year and bridge the gap.

I think we’re all sick of mediocrity on the pitch over a very long period of time… In fact at times mediocrity would have been a gift!

Yeah agree on the squad. The balance doesn’t look right overall as it stands which is hugely frustrating. Smith has put this team together and needs to get a tune out of it. I think on paper it’s good enough (injuries permitting) to get top 4 but i have a suspicion we will fall well short

Re: RD 7 | Warrington Wolves (H) : Thu Apr 11, 2024 12:25 am  

Kaeru - I was definitely on the side of understanding issues last year which made the whole season an almost impossible challenge. I don't think a lot of people understand how hard it was for Rohan to manage a squad through last season when he knew the squad was facing a major revamp in the off-season.

But we're near the bottom of the league in attacking sets, are struggling to score more than 2 tries a game, and play far too much of every game at the wrong end of the field. I'd say the issues are more fundamental than errors, its certainly not injuries either. With quite a different squad this list of issues is the same as last season.

On short kick-offs, I'd say that's just one example of something that distracts from the basics. Never mind the stats (which are highly debatable given that most teams only try them in dire circumstances near the end of a game, so there's a small and biased sample), it speaks of a mindset of hoping to get a cheap win of possession, rather than focusing on kicking deep and building pressure through defensive hard work. It also ignores issues such as the other team making a mistake direct from the kick off or in an early tackle - in any event near their own end. Short drop outs are different - there are valid reasons for trying them, which is why they've almost become standard.

I just don't understand why there's so much reluctance to acknowledge the fact that whether its passive defence or any other reason, we are losing the field position battle far too often to give us much of a chance. Playing at the wrong end of the field just invites defeat.