Re: For the live of God,Allah or whoever-McDermott GO!!! : Mon Sep 24, 2012 11:47 am  

The Eagle wrote:

I disagree. Its only skewed by Leeds' win last season. Before that the grand final had been won by a team from the top 2 from every season bar one since its inception. The most consistent team over the season still tends to take the main prize

The argument is that the current Top 8 play-off system dilutes the regular season fixtures and renders them meaningless. It's about re-establishing the importance of the regular season fixtures in order that league positions actually matter a lot more as opposed to rewarding mediocrity throughout the regular season. A Top 5 play-off system would be my preferred option.

Taking Leeds as an example, all they need to do during the regular season is pick up sufficient points against mainly whipping boy SL rabble and the rest takes care of itself. It doesn't matter how they perform against the top sides during the regular season as they are still going to finish 5th, and by doing so, they are rewarded with two more fixtures against whipping boy SL rabble in the play-offs.

I never had any doubts that Leeds would progress to the Semi Finals under this current play-off system. All that is required of them is to beat whipping boy opposition twice (that's a given) and then peak for 2 games against meaningful opposition at the end of the season, just like last year.

The reward for finishing 5th is way too cushy under this play-off system. The reward for finishing as lowly as 5th ought to be having to peak for 4 games against teams that finished higher on the ladder (all away from home) - a daunting prospect, but if it were to be achieved, there could be no doubting the validity of the 5th placed team being crowned worthy SL champions.

Re: For the live of God,Allah or whoever-McDermott GO!!! : Mon Sep 24, 2012 11:51 am  

Agree with this above.

William Eve wrote:

The reward for finishing 5th is way too cushy under this play-off system. The reward for finishing as lowly as 5th ought to be having to peak for 4 games against teams that finished higher on the ladder (all away from home) - a daunting prospect, but if it were to be achieved, there could be no doubting the validity of the 5th placed team being crowned worthy SL champions.

How would that play-off system be organised?

Re: For the live of God,Allah or whoever-McDermott GO!!! : Mon Sep 24, 2012 12:07 pm  

tvoc wrote: Agree with this above. How would that play-off system be organised? It's the previous Top 5 play-off system... THIS ONE. I included the Grand Final as a fixture away from home which technically it is, even though it's a neutral venue for both Grand Finalists.

tvoc wrote: Agree with this above. How would that play-off system be organised? It's the previous Top 5 play-off system... THIS ONE. I included the Grand Final as a fixture away from home which technically it is, even though it's a neutral venue for both Grand Finalists.

Re: For the live of God,Allah or whoever-McDermott GO!!! : Mon Sep 24, 2012 12:21 pm  

William Eve wrote: tvoc wrote: Agree with this above. How would that play-off system be organised? It's the previous Top 5 play-off system... THIS ONE. I included the Grand Final as a fixture away from home which technically it is, even though it's a neutral venue for both Grand Finalists. I think its obviously best to have the top 5 system. In reality though the only difference is 1 game which is harder for 5th team. With the GF against the top team probably easier at a neutral venue. If all goes to form, you'd have to beat 4th, then 1st then 2nd under the current system, assuming you dispose of the warm up team in 8th. In the old system, you get progressively harder games. I don't see that much difference. Lest year's league sucess was based more on the fact that 4th was a woeful Hudds teams, and the both 1st and 2nd teams bottled it in their semi finals. The system isn't that bad, just other teams couldn't handle the play off experience of Leeds and Saints. In the end it was them at fault for being flat track bullys, and not having the minerals to do it in a series of tough games. Don't get me wrong, its easier to win from 5th than it was under the 5 team system, but the odds are still stacked in your favour if you finish top 2

William Eve wrote: tvoc wrote: Agree with this above. How would that play-off system be organised? It's the previous Top 5 play-off system... THIS ONE. I included the Grand Final as a fixture away from home which technically it is, even though it's a neutral venue for both Grand Finalists. I think its obviously best to have the top 5 system. In reality though the only difference is 1 game which is harder for 5th team. With the GF against the top team probably easier at a neutral venue. If all goes to form, you'd have to beat 4th, then 1st then 2nd under the current system, assuming you dispose of the warm up team in 8th. In the old system, you get progressively harder games. I don't see that much difference. Lest year's league sucess was based more on the fact that 4th was a woeful Hudds teams, and the both 1st and 2nd teams bottled it in their semi finals. The system isn't that bad, just other teams couldn't handle the play off experience of Leeds and Saints. In the end it was them at fault for being flat track bullys, and not having the minerals to do it in a series of tough games. Don't get me wrong, its easier to win from 5th than it was under the 5 team system, but the odds are still stacked in your favour if you finish top 2

Re: For the live of God,Allah or whoever-McDermott GO!!! : Mon Sep 24, 2012 12:22 pm  

William Eve wrote: It's the previous Top 5 play-off system... THIS ONE. I included the Grand Final as a fixture away from home which technically it is, even though it's a neutral venue for both Grand Finalists. Ah yes my personal favourite. Every league position counted for something and to climax the season your next game is your most important. How does the saying go, if it ain't broke don't fix it. _____________ Under the current top 8 format the team finishing the Regular Rounds in 4th have won 1 from 8 and all have ended their seasons with a home defeat. In three of those four years the season ending home defeat coming at the hands of a team finishing the Regular Rounds beneath them on the table. Under the current top 8 format the team finishing the Regular Rounds in 5th have won 8 from 10 and of the two losses only one was at home to a team finishing lower. For all people saying finishing higher up the league will improve your chances and perhaps in theory it should there is mounting evidence that suggests finishing 4th is a harder road than finishing 5th and that surely can't be a desirable outcome ? Even teams finishing 6th have faired better than those finishing 4th under this system winning 4 from 8.

William Eve wrote: It's the previous Top 5 play-off system... THIS ONE. I included the Grand Final as a fixture away from home which technically it is, even though it's a neutral venue for both Grand Finalists. Ah yes my personal favourite. Every league position counted for something and to climax the season your next game is your most important. How does the saying go, if it ain't broke don't fix it. _____________ Under the current top 8 format the team finishing the Regular Rounds in 4th have won 1 from 8 and all have ended their seasons with a home defeat. In three of those four years the season ending home defeat coming at the hands of a team finishing the Regular Rounds beneath them on the table. Under the current top 8 format the team finishing the Regular Rounds in 5th have won 8 from 10 and of the two losses only one was at home to a team finishing lower. For all people saying finishing higher up the league will improve your chances and perhaps in theory it should there is mounting evidence that suggests finishing 4th is a harder road than finishing 5th and that surely can't be a desirable outcome ? Even teams finishing 6th have faired better than those finishing 4th under this system winning 4 from 8.

Re: For the live of God,Allah or whoever-McDermott GO!!! : Mon Sep 24, 2012 12:28 pm  

tvoc wrote:

Under the current top 8 format the team finishing the Regular Rounds in 4th have won 1 from 8 and all have ended their seasons with a home defeat. In three of those four years the season ending home defeat coming at the hands of a team finishing the Regular Rounds beneath them on the table.

Under the current top 8 format the team finishing the Regular Rounds in 5th have won 8 from 10 and of the two losses only one was at home to a team finishing lower.

For all people saying finishing higher up the league will improve your chances and perhaps in theory it should there is mounting evidence that suggests finishing 4th is a harder road than finishing 5th and that surely can't be a desirable outcome ?

Even teams finishing 6th have faired better than those finishing 4th under this system winning 4 from 8.

Good stats, but I personally think that some teams just don't have the minerals or enough left in the tank to compete with the big boys.

I was chatting to a mate about this the other day. Has anyone got stats about away wins since the play off started. Given when you play away you are playing a higher team, I would like to see how many there are, and who has most. I can think of the following:
Leeds at KR in 2005
Leeds at DW in 2010
Leeds at HJ in 2011
Leeds at Galpharm in 2011
Leeds at Catalans in 2012
Wire at Leeds in 2006
Wigan at Bradford in 2007
Bradford at Saints in 2005
Saints at Wire in 2012
Saints at Wigan in 2011

I'm sure there are more, but probably not that many

Re: For the live of God,Allah or whoever-McDermott GO!!! : Mon Sep 24, 2012 1:09 pm  

Since the SL Play-Offs began in 1998 there have been 99 games played including the 14 finals. That makes Wigan V Leeds game number 100 but that's beside the point.

Excluding the Finals the remaining 85 matches have finished with 57 home wins and 28 away wins. So statistically that's 1 away win to 2 defeats in every 3 matches. Surprised?

List of all Away Play-Off wins:

09-Oct-98 ….. SL 3 - ESF ….. Halifax V St Helens ….. 30 - 37
19-Sep-99 ….. SL 4 - EPO ….. Wigan V Castleford …..10 - 14
24-Sep-99 ….. SL 4 - ESF ….. Leeds V Castleford ….. 16 - 23
29-Sep-00 ….. SL 5 - QSF ….. Wigan V St Helens ….. 16 - 54
28-Sep-01 ….. SL 6 - ESF ….. Hull V St Helens ….. 20 - 24
05-Oct-02 ….. SL 7 - QSF ….. St Helens V Bradford ….. 26 - 28
10-Oct-03 ….. SL 8 - FE ….. Leeds V Wigan ….. 22 - 23
24-Sep-04 ….. SL 9 - EPO ….. Hull V Wakefield ….. 18 - 28
02-Oct-04 ….. SL 9 - QSF ….. Leeds V Bradford ….. 12 - 26
24-Sep-05 ….. SL 10 - EPO ….. Warrington V Hull ….. 6 - 40
30-Sep-05 ….. SL 10 - QSF ….. St Helens V Leeds ….. 16 - 19
07-Oct-05 ….. SL 10 - FE ….. St Helens V Bradford ….. 18 - 23
22-Sep-06 ….. SL 11 - EPO ….. Leeds V Warrington ….. 17 - 18
21-Sep-07 ….. SL 12 - EPO ….. Bradford V Wigan ….. 30 - 31
29-Sep-07 ….. SL 12 - ESF ….. Hull V Wigan ….. 18 - 21
20-Sep-08 ….. SL 13 - ESF ….. Les Catalans V Wigan ….. 26 - 50
19-Sep-09 ….. SL 14 - EPO ….. Wakefield V Les Catalans ….. 16 - 25
25-Sep-09 ….. SL 14 - PSF ….. Huddersfield V Les Catalans ….. 6 - 16
26-Sep-09 ….. SL 14 - PSF ….. Hull KR V Wigan ….. 16 - 30
11-Sep-10 ….. SL 15 - EPO ….. Hull V Hull KR ….. 4 - 21
12-Sep-10 ….. SL 15 - QPO ….. Wigan V Leeds ….. 26 - 27
18-Sep-10 ….. SL 15 - PSF ….. Warrington V Huddersfield ….. 22 - 34
25-Sep-10 ….. SL 15 - QSF ….. Leeds V Wigan ….. 6 - 26
18-Sep-11 ….. SL 16 - QPO ….. Wigan V St Helens ….. 18 - 26
23-Sep-11 ….. SL 16 - PSF ….. Huddersfield V Leeds ….. 28 - 34
30-Sep-11 ….. SL 16 - QSF ….. Warrington V Leeds ….. 24 - 26
15-Sep-12 ….. SL 17 - QPO ….. Warrington V St Helens ….. 6 - 28
21-Sep-12 ….. SL 17 - PSF ….. Les Catalans V Leeds ….. 20 - 27

In terms of which teams have achieved the most away wins in the Play-Offs -

Wigan 6
Leeds 5
St Helens 5
Bradford 3
Castleford 2
Catalans 2
Huddersfield 1
Hull 1
Hull KR 1
Wakefield 1
Warrington 1

Re: For the live of God,Allah or whoever-McDermott GO!!! : Mon Sep 24, 2012 1:45 pm  

tvoc wrote:

Since the SL Play-Offs began in 1998 there have been 99 games played including the 14 finals. That makes Wigan V Leeds game number 100 but that's beside the point.

Excluding the Finals the remaining 85 matches have finished with 57 home wins and 28 away wins. So statistically that's 1 away win to 2 defeats in every 3 matches. Surprised?

List of all Away Play-Off wins:

09-Oct-98 ….. SL 3 - ESF ….. Halifax V St Helens ….. 30 - 37
19-Sep-99 ….. SL 4 - EPO ….. Wigan V Castleford …..10 - 14
24-Sep-99 ….. SL 4 - ESF ….. Leeds V Castleford ….. 16 - 23
29-Sep-00 ….. SL 5 - QSF ….. Wigan V St Helens ….. 16 - 54
28-Sep-01 ….. SL 6 - ESF ….. Hull V St Helens ….. 20 - 24
05-Oct-02 ….. SL 7 - QSF ….. St Helens V Bradford ….. 26 - 28
10-Oct-03 ….. SL 8 - FE ….. Leeds V Wigan ….. 22 - 23
24-Sep-04 ….. SL 9 - EPO ….. Hull V Wakefield ….. 18 - 28
02-Oct-04 ….. SL 9 - QSF ….. Leeds V Bradford ….. 12 - 26
24-Sep-05 ….. SL 10 - EPO ….. Warrington V Hull ….. 6 - 40
30-Sep-05 ….. SL 10 - QSF ….. St Helens V Leeds ….. 16 - 19
07-Oct-05 ….. SL 10 - FE ….. St Helens V Bradford ….. 18 - 23
22-Sep-06 ….. SL 11 - EPO ….. Leeds V Warrington ….. 17 - 18
21-Sep-07 ….. SL 12 - EPO ….. Bradford V Wigan ….. 30 - 31
29-Sep-07 ….. SL 12 - ESF ….. Hull V Wigan ….. 18 - 21
20-Sep-08 ….. SL 13 - ESF ….. Les Catalans V Wigan ….. 26 - 50

19-Sep-09 ….. SL 14 - EPO ….. Wakefield V Les Catalans ….. 16 - 25
25-Sep-09 ….. SL 14 - PSF ….. Huddersfield V Les Catalans ….. 6 - 16
26-Sep-09 ….. SL 14 - PSF ….. Hull KR V Wigan ….. 16 - 30
11-Sep-10 ….. SL 15 - EPO ….. Hull V Hull KR ….. 4 - 21
12-Sep-10 ….. SL 15 - QPO ….. Wigan V Leeds ….. 26 - 27
18-Sep-10 ….. SL 15 - PSF ….. Warrington V Huddersfield ….. 22 - 34
25-Sep-10 ….. SL 15 - QSF ….. Leeds V Wigan ….. 6 - 26
18-Sep-11 ….. SL 16 - QPO ….. Wigan V St Helens ….. 18 - 26
23-Sep-11 ….. SL 16 - PSF ….. Huddersfield V Leeds ….. 28 - 34
30-Sep-11 ….. SL 16 - QSF ….. Warrington V Leeds ….. 24 - 26
15-Sep-12 ….. SL 17 - QPO ….. Warrington V St Helens ….. 6 - 28
21-Sep-12 ….. SL 17 - PSF ….. Les Catalans V Leeds ….. 20 - 27

In terms of which teams have achieved the most away wins in the Play-Offs -

Wigan 6
Leeds 5
St Helens 5
Bradford 3
Castleford 2
Catalans 2
Huddersfield 1
Hull 1
Hull KR 1
Wakefield 1
Warrington 1

I love you.

Very interesting results. Didn't think there would be that many.

Interesting though that since the new system, the number of away wins has increased to 40% with 12 from 30 games. Is that the system, or is it the new kids on the block not being up to the standard yet as most winners are traditional play-off teams

Re: For the live of God,Allah or whoever-McDermott GO!!! : Mon Sep 24, 2012 2:15 pm  

If you look closer at each one though...

Under the current top 8 format the team finishing the Regular Rounds in 4th have won 1 from 8 and all have ended their seasons with a home defeat. In three of those four years the season ending home defeat coming at the hands of a team finishing the Regular Rounds beneath them on the table.

2009 - Hull KR (4th) lost to Leeds (1st) and then to Wigan (6th)
2010 - Leeds (4th) beat Wigan (1st) and then lost to Wigan
2011 - Hudds (4th) lost to Wire (1st and then lost to Leeds (5th)
2012 - Catalans (4th) lost to Wigan (1st) and then lost to Leeds (5th)
The 4th placed team has had to play either Leeds or Wigan in 7 of the 8 games. Two of the three strong playoff teams. The only game won was when Leeds finished 4th.

Under the current top 8 format the team finishing the Regular Rounds in 5th have won 8 from 10 and of the two losses only one was at home to a team finishing lower.

2009 - Wakey (5th) lost to Catalans (8th)
2010 - Hudds (5th) beat Crusaders (8th) and then Wire (3rd) and then lost to Saints (2nd)
2011 - Leeds (5th) beat Hull (8th) Hudds (4th) Wire (1st) and Saints (3rd)
2012 - Leeds (5th) have beat Wakey (8th) and Catalans (4th)

Note which teams are in red again, Hudds run stopped as soon as they faced the other of the big 3 Saints. Whilst Leeds broke the mould. If 5th is so easy and rewarding then why didn't Wakey or Hudds win or at least get to the GF???

Even teams finishing 6th have faired better than those finishing 4th under this system winning 4 from 8.

2009 - Wigan (6th) beat Cas (7th) and KR (4th) then lost to Saints (2nd)
2010 - Hull (6th) lost to KR (7th)
2011 - Catalans (6th) beat KR (7th) then lost to Wigan (2nd)
2012 - Hull (6th) beat Hudds (7th) then lost to Wire (2nd)

The only team to beat a higher ranked team from 6th place, one of those big 3 again Wigan. The other 3 wins coming against the 7th place team at home which you would probably expect.

I'll even do 3rd placed teams
2009 - Hudds (3rd) lost to Saints (2nd) and then Catalans (8th)
2010 - Wire (3rd) lost to Saints (2nd) and then Hudds (5th)
2011 - Saints (3rd) beat Wigan (2nd) twice, away and than at home, lost GF to Leeds (5th)
2012 - Saints (3rd) beat Wire (2nd) and will face them again at home this week.

So an 0 and 4 record when Wire and Hudds finished 3rd. Put one of the big boys in Saints there and it's a 3 and 1 record with the only defeat coming against......Leeds. Whether it's from finishing 2nd or 3rd, Saints have dominated the 2nd v 3rd clash winning 4 from 4.

Anybody following a pattern here???

Leeds record in Top 8 Playoffs -
Total = W10 - L1
vs Wigan or Saints = W3 - L1
vs Other opposition = W7 - L0

Saints record in Top 8 Playoffs -
Total = W7 - L3
vs Wigan or Leeds = W3 - L3
vs Other opposition = W4 - L0

Wigan record in top 8 Playoffs -
Total = W7 - L4
vs Leeds or Saints = W2 - L4
vs Other opposition = W5 - L0

Leeds, Saints & Wigan vs Other opposition in Top 8 Playoffs = W16 - L0

In fact if you exclude matches and losses against former big playoff team Bradford then only on 3 occasions have those 3 teams lost to 'other opposition' in the SL Playoffs history going back to 1998.
Leeds - 1999 vs Castleford....2006 vs Warrington
Wigan - 1999 vs Castleford
Saints - Have never lost to any other team in the playoffs except Leeds, Wigan and Bradford.

Re: For the live of God,Allah or whoever-McDermott GO!!! : Mon Sep 24, 2012 2:33 pm  

The Eagle wrote:

I think its obviously best to have the top 5 system. In reality though the only difference is 1 game which is harder for 5th team. With the GF against the top team probably easier at a neutral venue.

If all goes to form, you'd have to beat 4th, then 1st then 2nd under the current system, assuming you dispose of the warm up team in 8th.

In the old system, you get progressively harder games. I don't see that much difference.

I see a lot of difference.

Being rewarded with a home game against the 8th placed whipping boys for starters.

Then being rewarded with an away game against a team that's been beaten up the week before by the team finishing 1st.

TVOC's stats above back this up... the superior play-off results of the team finishing 5th in comparison to the poor results of the team finishing 4th. It's no fluke. Finishing 5th is an easier ride than finishing 4th under the current system, mainly because there's only 4 credible teams in the competition who can win it. Therefore, any of the 4 genuine competitors for the SL title might be well advised to take it easy and finish 5th rather than 4th if finishing in the Top 3 is proving too much for them over the course of the regular season. Wakefield at home in week 1 or Wigan away in week 1? That's a no brainer of a choice.

The key issue for me remains the reintroduction of some credibility and meaning to the SL regular rounds where finishing position counts for all. This will only happen when we return to a Top 5 play-off system, reduce the number of teams in SL to 12 and reintroduce P&R.