Re: SLQ 7 - Leigh Centurions H. : Mon Sep 26, 2016 7:47 pm  

SmokeyTA wrote:

Warrington have been in the top division for the history of RL, they are the 4th most successful side in the challenge cup, and have never ever been relegated. Taken on a wider view/longer view, it was Bradford who were the interloper on to a traditional big four of Leeds, Wigan, Saints and Warrington. Outside a decade or so that co-incided with the beginning of SL. Bradford were not, by any measure, a real big club. Bradfords current plight, is more of a reversion to mean, and the period 1996-2006 was more the outlier.

That, big 4, have won 53 of 120 challenge cups played and 24 of the last 30. They have won 45 of the 90 league titles played for since the return to a national league after the first world war (not including the war-time leagues in ww2) and thats gotten even more concentrated during the pro era, Where they have won 16 of the 20 SL titles, and made up 24 of the 32 Grand Finalists.

You're just boosting numbers by including Leeds, Wigan and Saints.

Before Simon Moran took over at Warrington they went over half a century with just 1 Challenge Cup and 0 league titles to their name, that's not a constant 'Big Club' and most of their success was in a certain period of late 40's-mid 50's, not unlike Bradford with their mid 90's-mid 00's. Before to his investment started to pay off with the Cup wins of 2009, 2010 and 2012 they had won less Challenge Cups than Hudds and the same amount as Wakey and Halifax. And for his ownership it's still taken them over a decade and counting to clinch the main prize and that's the point being made by others regarding that it takes time.

Re: SLQ 7 - Leigh Centurions H. : Mon Sep 26, 2016 7:54 pm  

Him wrote:

Christ you do talk some bo||ocks Smokey.

Warrington were adrift, rudderless, simply making the playoffs was enough for them.

This isn't about history, it's about where clubs are now and where they can get to. Leigh can get to the very top, (as Warrington have) but it will take a long time of consistent investment and improvement. There is no magic bullet solution, as Koukash has found. Leigh have first to make themselves a consistent mid-table side whilst building/expanding the infrastructure and reach of the club. As Warrington did. Then they can attempt the huge step from mid-table to the top. But you can't skip out that middle step, it just won't work. As Koukash has comprehensively proved.

You take it personally when facts disprove whatever narrative you are trying to pretend is the truth now.

Leigh are in a completely different position to Warrington, Leigh have spent 1 season in the top flight in the professional era, Warrington have never spent a season out of it.

Where you wish to downplay Warrington as 'adrift, rudderless, simply making the playoffs was enough for them' Most clubs are striving for that. Leigh are far far below that. The fact is, bar the big 4, 'adrift, rudderless, and simply making the playoffs' is historically good, if Leigh's next ten years are as good as Wire's decade pre 2004 and the move the Halliwell Jones, it will by a long long way their best period of success in my life-time.

Koukash hasnt comprehensively proved anything other than his own inability to actually put in place any sort of plan. But im not arguing Leigh can make that huge step to the top without being a mid-table side first. Im arguing that they can't do it either way. It very very rarely happens for any club in any circumstance and when it does, it usually a very brief time.

Re: SLQ 7 - Leigh Centurions H. : Mon Sep 26, 2016 8:01 pm  

SmokeyTA wrote:

Its not really, its a kind of SL-centric view.

Warrington have been in the top division for the history of RL, they are the 4th most successful side in the challenge cup, and have never ever been relegated. Taken on a wider view/longer view, it was Bradford who were the interloper on to a traditional big four of Leeds, Wigan, Saints and Warrington. Outside a decade or so that co-incided with the beginning of SL. Bradford were not, by any measure, a real big club. Bradfords current plight, is more of a reversion to mean, and the period 1996-2006 was more the outlier.

That, big 4, have won 53 of 120 challenge cups played and 24 of the last 30. They have won 45 of the 90 league titles played for since the return to a national league after the first world war (not including the war-time leagues in ww2) and thats gotten even more concentrated during the pro era, Where they have won 16 of the 20 SL titles, and made up 24 of the 32 Grand Finalists.

'consistent investment in the right areas' has brought Huddersfield no challenge cup wins, and 0 Grand Final appearances, Hull have had huge investment and moved to a great new stadium and made huge strides in becoming a big club off the field, they have 2ccs and being comfortably beaten in a GF to show for it, Cas are held up as a model of how to run a 'smaller club' they havent won an championship in their history and havent won a CC in 30 years. In the 10 years since promotion Hull KR have had millions pumped in to them, on and off the field, I can't see a 50-0 loss in a CC final as a good return for that, and they may not even be in SL next year.

The fact is Hugo is right, RL has always had success concentrated in a few clubs, the change to professionalism has exacerbated that, smaller clubs have been left behind both on and off the field and cannot compete on a regular basis. People hold up our struggles this year as evidence 'anything can happen' but the fact is, this historically bad year for us, would delight Leigh next year.

And ?

Re: SLQ 7 - Leigh Centurions H. : Mon Sep 26, 2016 8:02 pm  

ThePrinter wrote:

You're just boosting numbers by including Leeds, Wigan and Saints.

Before Simon Moran took over at Warrington they went over half a century with just 1 Challenge Cup and 0 league titles to their name, that's not a constant 'Big Club' and most of their success was in a certain period of late 40's-mid 50's, not unlike Bradford with their mid 90's-mid 00's. Before to his investment started to pay off with the Cup wins of 2009, 2010 and 2012 they had won less Challenge Cups than Hudds and the same amount as Wakey and Halifax. And for his ownership it's still taken them over a decade and counting to clinch the main prize and that's the point being made by others regarding that it takes time.

im not boosting anything by Including Leeds, Wigan and Saints. It would be ThePrinter level of nonsense for me to count the trophies won by a big 4 of Leeds, Wigan, Saints, and Wire, that didnt include Wigan, leeds and Saints.

Simon Moran has been part of Warrington for a fair old time now, the majority of the pro-era, it makes no sense to take out just because it suits you. Its like about 10% of the entire games existence you are removing for no discernible reason.

Re: SLQ 7 - Leigh Centurions H. : Mon Sep 26, 2016 8:04 pm  

GUBRATS wrote:

And ?

And nothing.

Its a self-contained argument backed up by facts and evidence. Has that confused you?

Re: SLQ 7 - Leigh Centurions H. : Mon Sep 26, 2016 8:08 pm  

SmokeyTA wrote:

And nothing.

Its a self-contained argument backed up by facts and evidence. Has that confused you?

It's a very nicely put together history lesson , but history is in the past , you make your own future

Re: SLQ 7 - Leigh Centurions H. : Mon Sep 26, 2016 8:16 pm  

GUBRATS wrote:

It's a very nicely put together history lesson , but history is in the past , you make your own future

And history is filled with the failings of fools who are certain they were the exception, and not the rule. They werent.

Re: SLQ 7 - Leigh Centurions H. : Mon Sep 26, 2016 8:19 pm  

SmokeyTA wrote:

im not boosting anything by Including Leeds, Wigan and Saints. It would be ThePrinter level of nonsense for me to count the trophies won by a big 4 of Leeds, Wigan, Saints, and Wire, that didnt include Wigan, leeds and Saints.

Simon Moran has been part of Warrington for a fair old time now, the majority of the pro-era, it makes no sense to take out just because it suits you. Its like about 10% of the entire games existence you are removing for no discernible reason.

No, Him made a relevant point about Warrington and the investment they've made over the last decade to get up to the likes of Leeds, Saints and Wigan and you tried to make out as if Warrington had been at their level throughout the games history by coming up with stuff such as those 4 teams have won 16 of the 20 GF's played when we know Wire haven't won any of them and nearly half of their 8 Challenge Cups came after they had Moran's money.

Moran became owner of Warrington in 2003. How many of the 2 big trophies did they win in the previous 50 years and what years were they?

Re: SLQ 7 - Leigh Centurions H. : Mon Sep 26, 2016 8:21 pm  

SmokeyTA wrote:

And history is filled with the failings of fools who are certain they were the exception, and not the rule. They werent.

We might be the exception , most likely we won't be , but that's the beauty of sport , nobody knows , even you

And if we're not , why do you even care ? , go on , tell us we're stopping somebody else from being the exception , some mythical club that our existence is holding back

Re: SLQ 7 - Leigh Centurions H. : Mon Sep 26, 2016 8:22 pm  

SmokeyTA wrote:

And history is filled with the failings of fools who are certain they were the exception, and not the rule. They werent.

Well, us little folk had better give up then. Thanks for the heads-up smokey.