Re: For the live of God,Allah or whoever-McDermott GO!!! : Thu Sep 27, 2012 11:07 am  

Juan Cornetto wrote:

By the same token some of our losses this year could be attributed to our high error count which would mean the winners were "considerably helped by mistake ridden opposition efforts" too!!

Perhaps but not neccessarily so. Which specific games do you have in mind?

Juan Cornetto wrote:

We had the 3rd highest error count in SL. However your stats are pointless unless they also record that these errors actually cost us those games otherwise it is just conjecture. Warrington finished one point behind the leaders and lost 5 fewer games than we did yet made 15% more errors over the season.

Do I say errors and errors alone cost any team any game? I think they are a key element but there are other elements also. There is a tendancy for some to focus on penalty counts almost to the exclusion of everything else but sometimes penalties conceded at an appropriate time and situation prevent a worse case occurring.

Do you think taking an overall season tally as you have done there adds anything to a discussion regarding whether on any given day one team making a disproportionately high amount of errors in relation to their opponents has a key part to play in the eventual outcome?

The relevance to the statistic is on the day not when taken as an average over 27 rounds. If both teams make a similar amount of errors the impact on the result will be marginal. If, as occurred on Friday, one team improves on their usual average while the other exceeds theirs and it result in a large disparity then I maintain that the large disparity will have an impact on the outcome.

The average over the season will have no bearing unless the game falls in-line with those averages and this one clearly didn't as Leeds made 46% fewer errors than their average would suggest they would over 27 rounds just as Les Catalans made 23% more than theirs.

It's the disparity within the eighty minutes that can be argued to have had an effect on the outcome not neccessarily the relative averages of the two competing teams over the season.

Re: For the live of God,Allah or whoever-McDermott GO!!! : Thu Sep 27, 2012 11:40 am  

tvoc wrote:

Perhaps but not neccessarily so. Which specific games do you have in mind?

Do I say errors and errors alone cost any team any game? I think they are a key element but there are other elements also. There is a tendancy for some to focus on penalty counts almost to the exclusion of everything else but sometimes penalties conceded at an appropriate time and situation prevent a worse case occurring.

Do you think taking an overall season tally as you have done there adds anything to a discussion regarding whether on any given day one team making a disproportionately high amount of errors in relation to their opponents has a key part to play in the eventual outcome?

The relevance to the statistic is on the day not when taken as an average over 27 rounds. If both teams make a similar amount of errors the impact on the result will be marginal. If, as occurred on Friday, one team improves on their usual average while the other exceeds theirs and it result in a large disparity then I maintain that the large disparity will have an impact on the outcome.

The average over the season will have no bearing unless the game falls in-line with those averages and this one clearly didn't as Leeds made 46% fewer errors than their average would suggest they would over 27 rounds just as Les Catalans made 23% more than theirs.

It's the disparity within the eighty minutes that can be argued to have had an effect on the outcome not neccessarily the relative averages of the two competing teams over the season.

Of course errors have an effect. You inferred that in some key victories this year opposition errors was a major factor in our wins. Maybe so and maybe not. But wasn't it ever thus for most games in sport? But unless you are precise in how each error led to victory or defeat it is pure conjecture that the error counts were vital.

In any game an error (or penalty) or series of errors or penalties can have a major effect on momentum, and the result, depending on where on the field it occurs and if on 1st or last tackle for instance. In some games the numbers even up over the course of the game, but it is the timing of the errors and the context within a game that can determine the outcome and not the pure numbers of errors/penalties.

You appeared to be concentrating on the number of errors rather than their individual importance.

Re: For the live of God,Allah or whoever-McDermott GO!!! : Thu Sep 27, 2012 12:53 pm  

Juan Cornetto wrote:

You appeared to be concentrating on the number of errors rather than their individual importance.

Only as a general indicator but for me often a telling one. Not completing your sets is rarely if ever a positive factor - unless you have evidence to the contrary that you'd like to share?

Re: For the live of God,Allah or whoever-McDermott GO!!! : Thu Sep 27, 2012 2:18 pm  

tvoc wrote:

Only as a general indicator but for me often a telling one. Not completing your sets is rarely if ever a positive factor - unless you have evidence to the contrary that you'd like to share?

I remember a coaching clinic, maybe three years ago, it was pointed out that the worst completion stats or error count (one of the two) belonged to Leeds and Warrington, that year. The reason? Both teams would chance their arm to score points, and were confident enough in their defence to do that.

I think if you're a poorer team, then you have to play the game of field position, which comes from completing sets and turning over on your terms - a clearing kick, or attacking kick for a score or repeat set.

Re: For the live of God,Allah or whoever-McDermott GO!!! : Fri Sep 28, 2012 10:42 am  

The first paragraph sounds like an approach a talented team could adopt in the Regular Rounds, the second paragraph is Play-Off football.

I think I said earlier on this thread that both Warrington and Leeds had played good play-off football last weekend and should go forward with some confidence.
That wasn't said off the back of error strewn casual performances like you might see during the Regular Rounds but off the back of set-completion, kick-chase and challenging the opposition to go the length if they wanted to score.

St Helens under Rush appear to have been concentrating on getting their Play-Off style together. Wigan I'm not convinced about. Should be two fascinating games this week - looking forward to it.

Re: For the live of God,Allah or whoever-McDermott GO!!! : Fri Sep 28, 2012 11:46 am  

tvoc wrote:

The first paragraph sounds like an approach a talented team could adopt in the Regular Rounds, the second paragraph is Play-Off football.

I think I said earlier on this thread that both Warrington and Leeds had played good play-off football last weekend and should go forward with some confidence.
That wasn't said off the back of error strewn casual performances like you might see during the Regular Rounds but off the back of set-completion, kick-chase and challenging the opposition to go the length if they wanted to score.

St Helens under Rush appear to have been concentrating on getting their Play-Off style together. Wigan I'm not convinced about. Should be two fascinating games this week - looking forward to it.

Interesting point of view about different tactic adopted in main season, and play-offs. Do you think that teams play a game with high error rates in order to over expose their defence during the season, so its battle hardened by play off time?

I seem to remember in one of the McClennan seasons that we had the highest number of penalties conceded during the season, but that the problem magically went away at play off time.

Re: For the live of God,Allah or whoever-McDermott GO!!! : Fri Sep 28, 2012 12:38 pm  

The Eagle wrote:

Interesting point of view about different tactic adopted in main season, and play-offs. Do you think that teams play a game with high error rates in order to over expose their defence during the season, so its battle hardened by play off time?

I seem to remember in one of the McClennan seasons that we had the highest number of penalties conceded during the season, but that the problem magically went away at play off time.

I think this is exactly what BMcD has done through the season. Sacrificed one or two games to expose our frailties so they can be identified and rectified for the play-offs.

How else can you explain the performance we put in against Huddersfield a few weeks back?

Re: For the live of God,Allah or whoever-McDermott GO!!! : Fri Sep 28, 2012 1:38 pm  

Fat Boy wrote:

I think this is exactly what BMcD has done through the season. Sacrificed one or two games to expose our frailties so they can be identified and rectified for the play-offs.

How else can you explain the performance we put in against Huddersfield a few weeks back?

Motivation must be difficult to muster once you've already fulfilled your regular season ambition of finishing 5th.

Re: For the live of God,Allah or whoever-McDermott GO!!! : Fri Sep 28, 2012 2:00 pm  

The Eagle wrote:

Do you think that teams play a game with high error rates in order to over expose their defence during the season, so its battle hardened by play off time?

No. I don't.

Re: For the live of God,Allah or whoever-McDermott GO!!! : Fri Sep 28, 2012 9:51 pm  

So McDermott has guided the Rhions to yet another Grand Final.

I'm sure Brian is sat somwhere with a cold beer in one hand and a cigar in the another with a smug grin on his face simply laughing at the expense of his 'know all' critics.

Well done Leeds, btw.