: Tue Apr 07, 2009 10:13 am  

DISA wrote:

I agree with you on the centre position. I too thought Gibson had a better game than many are saying, and seems to be a scapegoat.

It might be he is not the answer in the long term, but it is only fair he is given the rest of this season to have a crack at it. He deserves it on the promise he showed before his injury. You dont lose talent.

Where I dissagree with you is on the need to strengthen. And without opening old arguments, my view is definately someobody required in the forwards.

I agree with you agreeing with me. I also agree strengthening would be nice but don't think there's a desperate need.

: Tue Apr 07, 2009 11:06 am  

Personaly I think Gibson looks to have the makings albeit Sunday wasn't his finest hour. Watkins shows glimpses of high potential but seems to be a bit stuck in a 'trying too hard to make every play a gamebreaker' mode. Something he will be coached through and is likely to come out the other side as a better player from. Gibson and Watkins could form a really good long term Centre pairing for Leeds I really hope they do.

Still think we are a world class player light, with the most pressing need being in the forwards.

As for Sunday (and the season so far) we simply didn't play very well and Saints did. Time to move on.

I suspect the lack of any real pre season (for a large part of the squad) and a stated ambition to build up through the season to play consistently well in the later stages through to the grand final accounts for the current 'crisis'

: Tue Apr 07, 2009 11:10 am  

cheekydiddles wrote:

Right now looking at the long term picture has to be Watkins over Gibson.

IMO Gibson no longer has the pace and has never had the size. At least Watkins looks like he's the potential to be a muscular build and already has some pace and good footwork,just his defensive reads are a little suspect at the top level at this stage of his career which i'm sure will get better in time and with more coaching.

Players like Brad Godden who I think was awesome for us wasn't the biggest or fastest,a bit like Gibson but he had a great pair of hands and could read the game and make space for his winger and put him away.

From what I've seen of Gibson he doesn't yet have that and i'm not sure he ever will?

Smith although largely untried at centre because of injuries this season,isnt the biggest lad but has pace but sadly looks like we're about to lose him.

If we were a middle of the road team happy not to be in contention for winning things and building for the future then I'd say Watkins over Gibson every time.

However as we are one of the top teams wanting to be competing for trophies on a regular basis then short term I feel we'll continue to fall short in the big games and Cup semis/finals etc with either Watkins or Gibson.

With Senior probably in his last or next to last year I dont think we can go next year with a starting centre pair of Watkins and Gibson and expect to be challenging on all fronts on a regular basis (assuming of course Keith retires at end of this season,which form wise I hope he doesn't)

Assuming there is no one out there to get this season with the right quality,I feel recruiting a top centre should be our number 1 priority for next season.Even if Keith goes one more year,with injuries etc there should still be oppertunities for Gibson and Watkins to provice cover. (on this point has it been announced yet that Gleeson has gone to Wigan? I know it was supposed to be in time for the weekend but wasn't officially announced? Could it be another Ali/Ellis Situation? Right upto the day of us announcing both signings it was widely accepted that Ali was going to Saints and Ellis to Bradford....if theres no other quality centres available and nothing else lines up for 2010 I'd take Gleeson like a shot now...** just seen it now confirmed to Wigan**)

If we still had Toopi and Senior now, I'd consider sending Watkins out on a season loan to another SL team to gain hands on experience a bit like we did with Burgess.We are now reaping the benefif I think of him getting SL experience elsewhere at a 'lower' club before coming back to us.

Right now I feel Watkins has the potential to make the grade at a top club in the next 2-3 seasons.It might be unfair and just my opinion,so don't shout me down but I don't believe Gibson has the same amount of potential.

Once you lose your speed because of injuries it rarely ever comes back.

If he's no speed then he either needs to be more solidly built so he can take the crash ball and attract opposition winger/defenders into the tackle so he can release his winger/inside runner or has to have the hands and guile (SP) to be able to put people through gaps.

In crap weather like last years GF when Saints cannot use their fast passing,dummy runners all over the place attacking game we can make do with the likes of Ablett in the centres.

When the conditions suit,like yesterday,you need more creative and/or faster centres than we had in Gibson.

as long as RH keeps playing - I;m happy - think both Watkins & Gibson need more game time before people start slagging off

: Tue Apr 07, 2009 11:37 am  

G1 wrote:

I'd agree with most of that BB. I think Gibson is getting sharper and stronger each week and won't make a rush judgment on him for a few more games yet. Clearly Bluey rates him ahead of Watkins and Ablett for that shirt. I think Gibson is being scape-goated for Sunday and his performance was much better than most of the fek, sorry, posters on here have stated.

I'd agree with that. Gibson's not the reason we lost. The accusation of that is laughable. It's just easy to point to the right hand side and say, 'look there's the problem'. But having said that, it is the position we are least certain in. We can bring the Donald argument back in here. If we put his form (or lack of it) to one side and just look at what quality ball he has received, it just hasn't happened. The only one I can really recall (which put him away) was in the Celtics game (with the Watkins dream pass). No doubt, if he'd have been given more ball in those positions he would have a higher try tally than 2.

: Tue Apr 07, 2009 11:43 am  

Gibson isn't the reason we lost at all on Sunday, but I'm with tvoc on this one, based on all the games I've seen him in, including pre injuries, I couldn't see Gibson hitting the standards at centre. I just don't think he has any of the tools going forward that would worry his opposite number.
Having said that, alot of his better performances from us have come in the left centre (Hull KR away) and so maybe he doesn't enjoy playing on the right.
Tony Smith often commented that he saw Gibson as a future loose forward, and I think that this is much more likely to become his natural position, where it is less of a 1 on 1 physical battle, and he can use his rugby brain to pick holes.
Therefore I'm not writing him off because I think he's a talented young player, but he certainly isn't the answer at right centre for us.
IMO

: Tue Apr 07, 2009 1:17 pm  

DISA wrote:

It might be he is not the answer in the long term, but it is only fair he is given the rest of this season to have a crack at it. He deserves it on the promise he showed before his injury. You dont lose talent.

I don't see that happening unless Smith leaves the club early.

Hall has cemented his position on a wing (rather it was the other one) Donald is presently turning into the a late career re-incarnation of Francis Cummins (although still quicker naturally) and Senior is our only go to three-quarter.

As soon as Smith is available I see Gibson jettisoned straight back to the reserves.

: Tue Apr 07, 2009 1:19 pm  

tvoc wrote:

I don't see that happening unless Smith leaves the club early.

Hall has cemented his position on a wing (rather it was the other one) Donald is presently turning into the a late career re-incarnation of Francis Cummins (although still quicker naturally) and Senior is our only go to three-quarter.

As soon as Smith is available I see Gibson jettisoned straight back to the reserves.

Yeah. But IMO Donald should be dropped. His performances dont deserve the place thus far this season. Smith should be back on right wing, if he cant have his fullback spot.

Alternatively, go with Smith, and give Gibson the centre spot every time Senior is out (which is quite often these days).

I still would prefer a forward if we were making a signing.

: Tue Apr 07, 2009 1:26 pm  

DISA wrote:

Yeah. But IMO Donald should be dropped. His performances dont deserve the place thus far this season. Smith should be back on right wing, if he cant have his fullback spot.

Alternatively, go with Smith, and give Gibson the centre spot every time Senior is out (which is quite often these days).

I still would prefer a forward if we were making a signing.

As everyone keeps acknowledging though Donald appears unhappy on the right and the sooner he is back outside Senior (and hopefully back to his 2007 and 2008 form) the better. I'm not altogether sure I'm buying the better defender than Hall argument put forward pre-season by the club either given that a player with the attributes of a dying slug found his way past our right side defence on Sunday.

: Tue Apr 07, 2009 1:27 pm  

DISA wrote:

Yeah. But IMO Donald should be dropped. His performances dont deserve the place thus far this season. Smith should be back on right wing, if he cant have his fullback spot.

Alternatively, go with Smith, and give Gibson the centre spot every time Senior is out (which is quite often these days).

I still would prefer a forward if we were making a signing.

I think you are getting it all wrong, I would sack the coach for the fundamental errors he is making in team selection and structure.

Breaking up Senior and Donald is beyond stupidity.

: Tue Apr 07, 2009 4:04 pm  

The Magic Wand wrote:

I think you are getting it all wrong, I would sack the coach for the fundamental errors he is making in team selection and structure.

Breaking up Senior and Donald is beyond stupidity.

It's easier to look elite outside senior because he's a top centre. Donald struggles on the right where others have not. Gibson gave him some good ball but saints defended him well. Hall has excelled on the left even without as much pace so pace isn't as key as may be thought. As he's a rhino 09 we should keep him with Senior on the left as much as we can.

In my mind I would have cut the elite Donald start of season sign a 3 and and let the wing spots be occupied by Smith and one of BJB, Hall, Gibson, Watkins while giving Watkins and Gibson targeted games at centre.