: Mon Jul 27, 2009 3:11 pm  

tvoc wrote:

What makes you think that I haven't to some degree.....



..... other than my not reproducing them on here.

I suspect if you had....and they countered my point....they'd have been whipped out like a shot.

You usually play a straight hand |(unlike some ) and I think you'd have recounted them even if they supported my argument.

I therefore concluded that you don't have them.

But you could compile them I bet if you had the inclination

: Mon Jul 27, 2009 3:14 pm  

G1 wrote:

I suspect if you had....and they countered my point....they'd have been whipped out like a shot.

You usually play a straight hand |(unlike some ) and I think you'd have recounted them even if they supported my argument.

I therefore concluded that you don't have them.

But you could compile them I bet if you had the inclination

This is TVOC you're talking about, he's always got the inclination to produces stats!

: Mon Jul 27, 2009 3:29 pm  

There's a bit of a chicken/egg situation here.

Are we fatigued (through small stretched squad maybe), and therefore give more penalties away, or do we give too many penalties away, which leads to more defence, and therefore get more fatigued.

Difficult question. I do remember us losing a few penalty counts at the start of the year.

: Mon Jul 27, 2009 3:40 pm  

G1 wrote:

I suspect if you had....and they countered my point....they'd have been whipped out like a shot.

In a heartbeat.

G1 wrote:

You usually play a straight hand |(unlike some ) and I think you'd have recounted them even if they supported my argument.

Not sure I appreciate your use of the word usually there in relation to the stats that I produce.

G1 wrote:

I therefore concluded that you don't have them.

But you could compile them I bet if you had the inclination

I have them (with gaps) going back to 2005. I know they'll support your Smith V McClennan thesis but I wouldn't let that stop me publishing as you've graciously accepted above.

I'll have a look and add what I have to the McClennan ones.

__________

Tony Smith:

2005: 36 Complete (All Comps).

Leeds - Won 20, Drawn 5, Lost 11 (Penalties received 242, Conceded 216)

2006: Counts for 32 of the 33 games played (All Comps).

Leeds - Won 12, Drawn 6, Lost 14 (Penalties received 206, Conceded 181)

2007: Counts for 24 of the 32 games played (All Comps).

Leeds - Won 9, Drawn 3, Lost 12 (Penalties received 186, Conceded 193)

Brian McClennan:

2008: Counts for 29 of the 35 games played (All Comps).

Leeds - Won 11, Drawn 3, Lost 15 (Penalties received 247, Conceded 259)

2009: Complete (All Comps)

Leeds - Won 6, Drawn 4, Lost 14 (Penalties received 165, Conceded 209)

: Mon Jul 27, 2009 5:28 pm  

Damo-Leeds wrote:

:SLEEPY:

If Leeds lose a game then players are apparently missing. I can still see Leeds Rhinos as the defending back to back champions and currently residing 2nd in the SL table.

Missing is when your Widnes.

Leeds are just going through a bumpy patch that they’ll learn from and sort out come the business end of the season.

Excellent post

: Mon Jul 27, 2009 6:42 pm  

G1 wrote:

The self serving statistics you showed average penalties per game didn't look half as alarming or give the true picture as TVOC's statistics showing penalty counts lost.

Indeed.

Who'd have thunk that we'd have lost more counts than we won in 2006 & 2007? I wouldn't have, despite the evidence that discipline was slipping even then.

G1 wrote:

How you're going to persue your agenda of defending the indefensible in light of this I await with baited breath.

Bywater seems to have wised up and isn't biting even when he's been offered a 30 point start with 2 minutes to go.

Therefore, I'm going to play along.

The team's discipline this year has been poor. I think we agree on that.

Where we disagree is on where the culpability lies.

You've posted that its the coach's fault through his sending the players out too emotional. I disagree. The timing and type of penalties appears to back me up. We've later found that a number of players are conceding far fewer penalties this year than last, which again suggests the players aren't being sent out over psyched. I don't recall you or others offering any evidence to back up your theory.

I've posted my belief that its largely petulance on the part of the players that's the problem - something supported by the timing and type of penalties conceded. I don't know if you offer any acceptance of that theory. On looking at the stats I'd modify my belief - its not all the players that seem guilty of this as we've seen that several have improved records.

Irrespective of the cause, I think we'd both agree that the coach hasn't solved the problem. Where we'd differ there is that I suspect - based on those individually improved discipline stats again - that he has tried and partially succeeded; but that there remain a number of players causing problems.

Bywater has asked what you would do and your response was that you don't know - but its the coach's job. Not unreasonable, but its equally not unreasonable for us to speculate on what might be done - others have.

Most suggestions seem to be that the coach should fine or drop players.

Nobody is sure whether fines are already in place. Maybe they are but they're not working. Or maybe they're not.

In terms of dropping players, the obvious candidate is Kevin Sinfield: the worst offender, the player with the biggest down turn in discipline this year, the Captain who has become increasingly insolent to referees, and th eplayer who has publicly stated his belief that the problem is referees punishing Leeds unfairly. But can you drop your captain and goal kicker?

If you don't, and you drop someone else, what message does that send out to the squad or the Captain himself? Even if you do, who do you pick?

Kevin Sinfield 0.98
Ryan Bailey 0.85
Carl Ablett 0.71
Lee Smith 0.69
Luke Burgess 0.65
Jamie Jones-Buchannan 0.65
Danny Buderus 0.60
Brent Webb 0.56
Keith Senior 0.56
Jamie Peacock 0.55

That's the top 10. Bailey & Buderus are injured and with the current squad of players I'd have thought its very difficult to pick any of the others as sacrifial offerings.

That maybe just leaves reasoning with the players, something I'd speculate has happened already - particularly on account of a number of players having improved in this regard.

: Mon Jul 27, 2009 10:07 pm  

G1 wrote:

You raise a valid point about how far backwards Sinfield has gone under Mclennan's stewardship in terms of discipline.

Its' not just there though is it. Remember, our captain was shorlisted for Man of Steel at least twice under Smith's guidance.

Since McLenann's arrival he's looked a shadow of that player, albiet still a very important one in terms of our team.

I still remember the good old days when the captain was rightly heading into Headingley immortality.

tvoc wrote:

However this week belongs to:

Kevin Sinfield. If he plays he will become the first player to make 300 Appearances for Leeds in the SL Era.

Total: Played 272 + 27 ..... Tries 56 ..... Goals 852 ..... Drop Goals 18 ..... Points 1946

SL Reg Rds: Played 222 + 24 ..... Tries 40 ..... Goals 727 ..... Drop Goals 8 ..... Points 1622
SL Play Offs: Played 16 + 1 ..... Tries 2 ..... Goals 42 ..... Drop Goals 4 ..... Points 96
Challenge Cup: Played 32 + 2 ..... Tries 14 ..... Goals 75 ..... Drop Goals 4 ..... Points 210
WCC: Played 2 + 0 ..... Tries 0 ..... Goals 8 ..... Drop Goals 2 ..... Points 18

G1 wrote:

yet despite this he's even denegrated by a minority of our own fekwitted "fans".

What an acheivement.

Is it a case of, where the fekwitted fans lead others (who should know better) will eventually follow?

: Mon Jul 27, 2009 10:30 pm  

Puig-Aubert wrote:

Indeed.

Who'd have thunk that we'd have lost more counts than we won in 2006 & 2007? I wouldn't have, despite the evidence that discipline was slipping even then.




Bywater seems to have wised up and isn't biting even when he's been offered a 30 point start with 2 minutes to go.

Therefore, I'm going to play along.

The team's discipline this year has been poor. I think we agree on that.

Where we disagree is on where the culpability lies.

You've posted that its the coach's fault through his sending the players out too emotional. I disagree. The timing and type of penalties appears to back me up. We've later found that a number of players are conceding far fewer penalties this year than last, which again suggests the players aren't being sent out over psyched. I don't recall you or others offering any evidence to back up your theory.

I've posted my belief that its largely petulance on the part of the players that's the problem - something supported by the timing and type of penalties conceded. I don't know if you offer any acceptance of that theory. On looking at the stats I'd modify my belief - its not all the players that seem guilty of this as we've seen that several have improved records.

Irrespective of the cause, I think we'd both agree that the coach hasn't solved the problem. Where we'd differ there is that I suspect - based on those individually improved discipline stats again - that he has tried and partially succeeded; but that there remain a number of players causing problems.

Bywater has asked what you would do and your response was that you don't know - but its the coach's job. Not unreasonable, but its equally not unreasonable for us to speculate on what might be done - others have.

Most suggestions seem to be that the coach should fine or drop players.

Nobody is sure whether fines are already in place. Maybe they are but they're not working. Or maybe they're not.

In terms of dropping players, the obvious candidate is Kevin Sinfield: the worst offender, the player with the biggest down turn in discipline this year, the Captain who has become increasingly insolent to referees, and th eplayer who has publicly stated his belief that the problem is referees punishing Leeds unfairly. But can you drop your captain and goal kicker?

If you don't, and you drop someone else, what message does that send out to the squad or the Captain himself? Even if you do, who do you pick?

Kevin Sinfield 0.98
Ryan Bailey 0.85
Carl Ablett 0.71
Lee Smith 0.69
Luke Burgess 0.65
Jamie Jones-Buchannan 0.65
Danny Buderus 0.60
Brent Webb 0.56
Keith Senior 0.56
Jamie Peacock 0.55

That's the top 10. Bailey & Buderus are injured and with the current squad of players I'd have thought its very difficult to pick any of the others as sacrifial offerings.

That maybe just leaves reasoning with the players, something I'd speculate has happened already - particularly on account of a number of players having improved in this regard.

We're actually ad idem on most issues I would think.

I did offer a suggestion to David and it was to drop the worst culprit, McGuire with 4 penalties.

I even said that may be harsh but McGuire or Sinfield would send a clear message .

: Mon Jul 27, 2009 10:32 pm  

tvoc wrote:

I still remember the good old days when the captain was rightly heading into Headingley immortality.





Is it a case of, where the fekwitted fans lead others (who should know better) will eventually follow?

You've read something that isn't there.

I am Sinfield's greatest admirer. He's already attained immortal status with me.

However, unlike others, I am balanced in my appraisal, even when it comes to my favourites and there can be no doubt that Sinfield's form is poorer (and as Puig has demonstrated, his discipline) under Mclennan than it was under Smith.

He's still a vital cog though, as my earlier post acknowledged,.

: Mon Jul 27, 2009 10:42 pm  

G1 wrote:

and there can be no doubt that Sinfield's form is poorer (and as Puig has demonstrated, his discipline) under Mclennan than it was under Smith.

He's still a vital cog though, as my earlier post acknowledged,.

Discipline I'll accept, form I'm not so sure.

Leeds were lost without him V Hull KR and while he was ineffective at Wigan I'm guessing he was short of being fully fit.

Leeds' most fluent performances this season have come with Sinfield at halfback with McGuire at scrum half.