Re: Smith out ASAP : Tue May 28, 2024 10:14 pm  

[quote="KaeruJim"]But what style is going to work when players are making 14/15 errors a game Clueso? You can’t implement anything.

I do agree we’ve seen a lack of appetite to adapt and change in the face of evidence. Like the ruck speed was slower than promised, so we just complained about it for 2 months and lost the ruck. Like asking small wingers/FB to take the brutal carries out of yardage, when clearly we need to pick and choose. With Fus fit that might work better; but not with who we’ve actually had. Net result is we fail to establish any momentum in sets and the opposition are dominating us in the ruck.

Anyway if Smith is going to save his Leeds career, he’s going to have to deliver some strong performances and results in this next sequence that’s for sure.[/


Just think those 15 errors are a direct consequence of the style he chooses to play. In the long run, whilst some of the players are now letting him down, I think it's because they given up on a coach and a strategy that doesn't give them a decent chance to win. I really have a bad feeling about Saturday. I'll be going but the enjoyment has gone for me at present.

Re: Smith out ASAP : Wed May 29, 2024 12:48 am  

I know its a bit chicken and egg with respect to mistakes vs style of play, but I tend to agree with Arthur. I think a chunk of our mistakes are because of the style we are trying to play. Some are down to execution, but is it a surprise we panic when we have decent field position given how rarely we get it? Or that players continually running the ball out of trouble either drop the ball under pressure or try dumb offloads? Other errors like kicking out on the full should have been stamped out on day one.

We also have a squad who could not easily execute a more 'basic' game requiring forwards to be much more physical. Lisone can do this but only when the opposition are not up for it - a classic flat track bully. Holroyd can bang a big but for a big guy he doesn't run the ball in with enough venom, and Sangare is worse. Oledzki is a worker not a dynamic forward, and he really doesn't stand up that well against more powerful opposition IMO. And we have no genuine props in reserve.

If Smith wanted that rotation to be more dynamic they'd only be able to do it in patches, and then revert to type. Is that what we saw first half vs Sts in the cup? We've seen time and again that powder puff forwards never really change, and that size alone isn't enough. Sangare is today's Chris Feather.

That's why even if Smith wanted to change tack now I'm not sure he can. He built the team to play a specific way, which isn't working (and in some cases the players aren't up to it). I don't know how much can be changed without - yet again - turning over players. But he's the coach and he seemingly wanted this squad - either way a lot of responsibility is down to him.

Re: Smith out ASAP : Wed May 29, 2024 6:45 am  

[quote="ArthurClues"]
This is where we don't agree - I don't think Frawley throws that ball, Roberts drops a bomb under pressure as a direct response to Smith's style of play. Those are just instances of individual error which pop our balloons every game. I think Smith would have been happier had Frawley kept hold of it and Roberts made the catch.

He is responsible for signing the players that make mistakes too much, but he isn't responsible for these mistakes in-game.

Re: Smith out ASAP : Wed May 29, 2024 7:00 am  

[quote="KaeruJim"]


You're trying to separate the two Jim and I don't think you can.

We are under pressure for large periods in games.
That leads to mistakes.
Players feel pressure, especially when struggling for form.

The way we play, the form we're in and the mistakes we're making are all systematically linked.

Re: Smith out ASAP : Wed May 29, 2024 7:11 am  

Once were Loiners wrote:

I know its a bit chicken and egg with respect to mistakes vs style of play, but I tend to agree with Arthur. I think a chunk of our mistakes are because of the style we are trying to play. Some are down to execution, but is it a surprise we panic when we have decent field position given how rarely we get it? Or that players continually running the ball out of trouble either drop the ball under pressure or try dumb offloads? Other errors like kicking out on the full should have been stamped out on day one.

We also have a squad who could not easily execute a more 'basic' game requiring forwards to be much more physical. Lisone can do this but only when the opposition are not up for it - a classic flat track bully. Holroyd can bang a big but for a big guy he doesn't run the ball in with enough venom, and Sangare is worse. Oledzki is a worker not a dynamic forward, and he really doesn't stand up that well against more powerful opposition IMO. And we have no genuine props in reserve.

If Smith wanted that rotation to be more dynamic they'd only be able to do it in patches, and then revert to type. Is that what we saw first half vs Sts in the cup? We've seen time and again that powder puff forwards never really change, and that size alone isn't enough. Sangare is today's Chris Feather.

That's why even if Smith wanted to change tack now I'm not sure he can. He built the team to play a specific way, which isn't working (and in some cases the players aren't up to it). I don't know how much can be changed without - yet again - turning over players. But he's the coach and he seemingly wanted this squad - either way a lot of responsibility is down to him.

Again disagree that style = errors. I think people are finding any way to attribute blame to RS when we're talking like this frankly.

There is plenty to criticise about his approach but the errors are individual players lacking quality and/or concentration and discipline in key moments. We will retain the errors unless we switch out some repeat offenders.

I agree with you mostly over the analysis on the props. Holroyd needs an injury-free run and a real pre-season, but he does defend aggressively and puts himself about in the middle. Mik is fine, he's a good player. We fall off very quickly beyond those two though - Lisone is one with errors/sloppiness to his play, and Sangare doesn't run his weight.

Part of the problem though is the lightweight-ish back row. The only back rower who can bend the line is probably Smith, but I think we need another second row who is hard to handle. Personally I think McDonnell is our best grafter/dirty work player but all the other pack members should be awkward to defend against if we want more domination in centre field.

Re-signing Bentley and Donaldson (who to be fair is more here for morale than actually playing at this stage), and signing Goudemand just exacerbates the problems we have in the pack. We do have some better prospects coming through the academy but they could be a couple of years off realistically.

Re: Smith out ASAP : Wed May 29, 2024 7:24 am  

I really don’t think we have a style of play. Because we have an extremely lightweight pack we are unable to achieve mid field dominance. So we swing the ball out wide and hope for the best. Sadly it’s only been successful on two occasions this season, first half against saints at home, then second half away at Leigh. Mistakes on the field? Most of them are down to players who simply aren’t good enough, highlighted by the fact they produce the same mistakes on a regular basis. Looking at Roberts last week at Saints, his whole body position in going to field a high ball was wrong.
End result he dropped it. Once watched a rhinos training session, for 15 minutes Brent Webb was peppered with high balls by the reserves and youth lads. Suffice to say ,extremely rare to see Webb drop a high ball. Have a look at the points for on the league table, ours are a complete disaster.
Unfortunately I don’t possess a crystal ball ,but I would imagine we will finish around about fifth or sixth place. For me that would be an abject failure, looking at some recent postings on here , it seems some people would find that acceptable.

Re: Smith out ASAP : Wed May 29, 2024 7:25 am  

[quote="KaeruJim"]
There's always a mix isn't there? Rohan, however, does not have to keep picking a lad who has been terrible under the high ball all season. On Frawley, I have nothing against attempting to get the ball to Handley in that situation. The thing is a half back of even normal pace would have made enough ground to not have to attempt the pass in contact. Not Rohan's fault but his signing and his selection.

Re: Smith out ASAP : Wed May 29, 2024 9:07 am  

Regardless, the next few weeks are enormous for Smith (assuming he lasts this week!). If we lose to Cas I'd say there's no coming back from that, and there's only downside in all the games to Wire. Lose any of them before then and the pitchforks will be out, win them and he'll barely nudge the dial because only Leigh are even half decent. In some ways he'd be better with games against teams just above us for the next few games.

Re: Smith out ASAP : Wed May 29, 2024 9:07 am  

Backwoodsman wrote:

I really don’t think we have a style of play. Because we have an extremely lightweight pack we are unable to achieve mid field dominance. So we swing the ball out wide and hope for the best. Sadly it’s only been successful on two occasions this season, first half against saints at home, then second half away at Leigh. Mistakes on the field? Most of them are down to players who simply aren’t good enough, highlighted by the fact they produce the same mistakes on a regular basis. Looking at Roberts last week at Saints, his whole body position in going to field a high ball was wrong.
End result he dropped it. Once watched a rhinos training session, for 15 minutes Brent Webb was peppered with high balls by the reserves and youth lads. Suffice to say ,extremely rare to see Webb drop a high ball. Have a look at the points for on the league table, ours are a complete disaster.
Unfortunately I don’t possess a crystal ball ,but I would imagine we will finish around about fifth or sixth place. For me that would be an abject failure, looking at some recent postings on here , it seems some people would find that acceptable.

Agree with that but the notion that if Leeds don't finish top 4 is abject failure is based on flawed assumptions. In theory, 100% Leeds should be challenging for silverware every year of course. In practice we have no divine right and this squad and likely the coach too isn't working to the right standard. Problem is you can't assume your better players will hang around forever in an over-pressurised environment like Leeds. For me 2025 is the crucible year, where I would totally say that a finish outside the top 4 is not acceptable. For 2024 a play-offs spot would be good enough for me, yes.

Re: Smith out ASAP : Wed May 29, 2024 9:13 am  

I agree with Jim that most of the errors are not directly about any style the team are being asked to play. We are making these consistently through games, including spells when the pressure is off. Of course when we have been under the pump for extended periods of time the incidence of errors and penalties increases.

Re: the forwards, they need to step up collectively. Individually few have done much of merit this season. Oledski needs to be more aggressive, run hard more often, and not simply look to go to ground quickly to win a quick PTB on every tackle.

Lisone might be a Matt Adamson style fans favourite but he's the first one that I would show the door to. His discipline is atrocious for a player who spends so little time on the field. We are not getting value for our quota spot here. His 5 minute cameos might work against poorer sides but he lacks the size and impact to be a competition leading player. He might be worth it if the rest of the forwards are laying some sort of platform but that's not happening.

McDonnell was a strong player last season but he seems to have faded a lot. Reading Redvee (I know!), they seem to regard him as a bit of a grub and can't understand why Leeds put so much stock in him. I don't agree with all of that, but he does seem to be really struggling this season. Cameron Smith is another who looks really out of sorts. Goudemand looks pretty anonymous. Might as well give Donaldson another run out...