FORUMS FORUMS






RLFANS.COM
Celebrating
25 years service to
the Rugby League
Community!

   WWW.RLFANS.COM • View topic - The silence is deafening...
User avatar
RankPostsTeam
International Star5484
JoinedServiceReputation
Mar 03 20177 years53rd
OnlineLast PostLast Page
15th Apr 24 20:5015th Apr 24 20:48LINK
Milestone Posts
5000
10000
Milestone Years
0510 1520 2530

Re: The silence is deafening... : Wed Apr 24, 2019 12:57 pm  
Sal Paradise wrote:
You would never see a Murray side simply not compete - that is about attitude nothing to with quality. Murray's side got beat yes but not because they gave up - this Leeds side gives up when it gets tough


Spot on. Which is where a coach can make a difference. Forget comparing players etc.
User avatar
RankPostsTeam
International Board Member7199
JoinedServiceReputation
May 28 200222 years133rd
OnlineLast PostLast Page
16th Apr 24 14:3616th Apr 24 13:07LINK
Milestone Posts
5000
10000
Milestone Years
0510 1520 2530
Location
Isca Dumnoniorum

Re: The silence is deafening... : Wed Apr 24, 2019 1:19 pm  
Trebor1 wrote:
Spot on. Which is where a coach can make a difference. Forget comparing players etc.


Except the players Murray inherited already had a good attitude - a basic prerequisite for most professional RL players. I'd imagine even Furner expected this before he arrived. What Murray added was a new style of play built on aggressive defence. I don't think our current squad (again) possesses players with these attributes, especially in the forwards.

Any discussion of the team's current plight that doesn't involve looking at the players is short-sighted, impressionistic, and ignores the bulk of the evidence available to us.

The coach is not a magician, nor is he the person making mistakes on the field. Letting Furner go now after such a short period of time in charge is not the Leeds way IMO.
User avatar
RankPostsTeam
International Board Member18060No
Team
Selected
JoinedServiceReputation
Feb 27 200222 years301st
OnlineLast PostLast Page
11th Jun 23 20:4411th Jun 23 20:53LINK
Milestone Posts
15000
20000
Milestone Years
0510 1520 2530
Location
On the road
Signature
Your job is to say to yourself on a job interview does the hiring manager likes me or not. If you aren't a particular manager's cup of tea, you haven't failed -- you've dodged a bullet.

Re: The silence is deafening... : Thu Apr 25, 2019 2:46 pm  
Exeter Rhino wrote:
Except the players Murray inherited already had a good attitude - a basic prerequisite for most professional RL players. I'd imagine even Furner expected this before he arrived. What Murray added was a new style of play built on aggressive defence. I don't think our current squad (again) possesses players with these attributes, especially in the forwards.

Any discussion of the team's current plight that doesn't involve looking at the players is short-sighted, impressionistic, and ignores the bulk of the evidence available to us.

The coach is not a magician, nor is he the person making mistakes on the field. Letting Furner go now after such a short period of time in charge is not the Leeds way IMO.


So it begs the question - what is the point of a coach? If you have a good enough set of players with the correct skill set and attitude the coach has very limited influence. A good coach must add some value and the very least he can add is: a team as fit as appropriate and with the correct attitude. Murray's teams both had those qualities. Murray had a few plodders too: Cummins, Hay, Lawford, Kemp, Sheridan etc
User avatar
RankPostsTeam
International Star5484
JoinedServiceReputation
Mar 03 20177 years53rd
OnlineLast PostLast Page
15th Apr 24 20:5015th Apr 24 20:48LINK
Milestone Posts
5000
10000
Milestone Years
0510 1520 2530

Re: The silence is deafening... : Thu Apr 25, 2019 3:13 pm  
Sal Paradise wrote:
So it begs the question - what is the point of a coach? If you have a good enough set of players with the correct skill set and attitude the coach has very limited influence. A good coach must add some value and the very least he can add is: a team as fit as appropriate and with the correct attitude. Murray's teams both had those qualities. Murray had a few plodders too: Cummins, Hay, Lawford, Kemp, Sheridan etc


Indeed
User avatar
RankPostsTeam
International Board Member7199
JoinedServiceReputation
May 28 200222 years133rd
OnlineLast PostLast Page
16th Apr 24 14:3616th Apr 24 13:07LINK
Milestone Posts
5000
10000
Milestone Years
0510 1520 2530
Location
Isca Dumnoniorum

Re: The silence is deafening... : Thu Apr 25, 2019 3:24 pm  
Sal Paradise wrote:
So it begs the question - what is the point of a coach? If you have a good enough set of players with the correct skill set and attitude the coach has very limited influence. A good coach must add some value and the very least he can add is: a team as fit as appropriate and with the correct attitude. Murray's teams both had those qualities. Murray had a few plodders too: Cummins, Hay, Lawford, Kemp, Sheridan etc


Murray improved players and instilled a good team ethic. I dispute some of your player analysis though. Cummins was still a decent winger under Murray, and Hay was a destructive wide-running second-row and got selected for England/GB. Kemp was more of a Dean Bell era player and had left before our 1999 CC cup win (I thought he had everything apart from pace!). Sheridan was a solid scrum-half, and instrumental in the cup semi-final win against the Bulls. The deficiencies of Hay and Sheridan weren't really exposed until Daryl Powell was instilled as coach a few years later. Dean Lawford I'll give you, but he was hardly a regular member of the starting 13.

Dean Lance gets a lot of stick on here, but despite losing runs at the beginning and end of his tenure he did oversee a record winning run of something like 13 consecutive games, and take us to a CC final.

Daryl Powell is an interesting one. His Leeds record isn't great, but he is credited with laying the foundations for the 'Golden Generation' to come through. He's obviously a better coach now but he just couldn't beat the Bulls in 2003, despite 5 attempts. Tony Smith took this team (plus Bai and Lauitiiti) to real success, but he wasn't good at maintaining that success over four seasons until after his departure had been announced in 2007.

Both Brian McClennan and McDermott seemed to focus on getting an established group of top players to perform when it mattered. But even then the flow of quality younger players who made it started to dry up. Eventually the Golden Generation started to retire or leave, they were not replaced like-for-like with quality, and we are where we are - Leeds are having to revert to the old policy of big money signings to turn things around.

So to answer your question, at Leeds at least the role of the coach seems to be to a) blood and nurture young players, b) make quality signings, and c) get seasoned professionals to play their best when it matters. Only occasionally did a coach significantly improve average players - and even then the effects were limited, as Murray's team finished a lowly 5th (or so?) in his final season at Leeds.
User avatar
RankPostsTeam
Player Coach3092No
Team
Selected
JoinedServiceReputation
Feb 26 200618 years64th
OnlineLast PostLast Page
10th Mar 23 22:1119th Feb 23 21:41LINK
Milestone Posts
2500
5000
Milestone Years
0510 1520 2530
Signature
"Brian McDermott, with a wry smile, nods when asked if he remembers a specific incident which made him realise he was a prick. 'I do', he murmurs."

Re: The silence is deafening... : Sun Apr 28, 2019 9:08 am  
Exeter Rhino wrote:
Murray improved players and instilled a good team ethic. I dispute some of your player analysis though. Cummins was still a decent winger under Murray, and Hay was a destructive wide-running second-row and got selected for England/GB. Kemp was more of a Dean Bell era player and had left before our 1999 CC cup win (I thought he had everything apart from pace!). Sheridan was a solid scrum-half, and instrumental in the cup semi-final win against the Bulls. The deficiencies of Hay and Sheridan weren't really exposed until Daryl Powell was instilled as coach a few years later.
The key thing is those players looked their very best in 1998 and 1999. Deficiencies exposed later? Perhaps, or maybe there was something or someone else which brought the very best out of their relatively limited abilities.

Graham Murray is the very best example this club has ever had of a coach coming in and making an impact, turning the average players into good ones, utilising their skills to the best so that the overall team was better.

Tony Smith's impact I feel is similar but obviously different as the players he was working with were superior. But I'd also argue he made them superior, he brought in the good habits and the little things which helped make them winners. And Smith's genius was in letting that team believe they could win. After 2003, that bit of psychological management was so important - given the way the current team plays I wish Furner had something of that about him - they look terrified and panic in defence whenever things start going against them.
RankPostsTeam
Club Captain3615
JoinedServiceReputation
May 19 20168 years88th
OnlineLast PostLast Page
15th May 22 08:103rd May 22 22:52LINK
Milestone Posts
2500
5000
Milestone Years
0510 1520 2530

Re: The silence is deafening... : Sun Apr 28, 2019 12:26 pm  
Surely winning the cup in 99 the worst thing that happened to the club tho. GH should have sacked Graham Murray on the pitch at Wembley that fine sunny day!!! Lol.
User avatar
RankPostsTeam
International Board Member9288
JoinedServiceReputation
Feb 26 200222 years16th
OnlineLast PostLast Page
16th Apr 24 10:2814th Apr 24 07:00LINK
Milestone Posts
5000
10000
Milestone Years
0510 1520 2530
Location
anywhere, literally...
Signature
It's not how much talent you've got, it's what you do with it that counts.

Re: The silence is deafening... : Mon Apr 29, 2019 1:07 pm  
Now that we have a little breathing space between us and London, should we beat them in the magic game and at their place, that would put us 6 points clear of them with (currently) significantly better PD. Should we win only 3 more games other than London ones they would need to win 6 more from what would be 14 games.

I’d say that as long as we beat them twice, we should be fine.
RankPostsTeam
International Star2148
JoinedServiceReputation
Apr 02 201311 years159th
OnlineLast PostLast Page
14th Apr 24 14:0314th Apr 24 14:02LINK
Milestone Posts
1000
2500
Milestone Years
0510 1520 2530

Re: The silence is deafening... : Mon Apr 29, 2019 7:16 pm  
We are not good on plastic
User avatar
RankPostsTeam
International Board Member9288
JoinedServiceReputation
Feb 26 200222 years16th
OnlineLast PostLast Page
16th Apr 24 10:2814th Apr 24 07:00LINK
Milestone Posts
5000
10000
Milestone Years
0510 1520 2530
Location
anywhere, literally...
Signature
It's not how much talent you've got, it's what you do with it that counts.

Re: The silence is deafening... : Mon Apr 29, 2019 7:36 pm  
We’re not exactly sh1t3 hot on grass either...
PreviousNext

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Backwoodsman and 330 guests

REPLY

Subject: 
Message:
   
Please note using apple style emoji's can result in posting failures.
Use the FULL EDITOR to better format content or upload images, be notified of replies etc...

Return to Leeds Rhinos


RLFANS Recent Posts
FORUM
LAST
POST
TOPIC
POSTER
POSTS
11m
Cas A Challenge Cup
Stanfax
33
38m
Game - Song Titles
Boss Hog
35180
39m
BORED The Band Name Game
Boss Hog
57008
44m
Ticketmaster update
NickyKiss
106
48m
DoR - New Coach - Investor & Adam - New signings
Jake the Peg
139
Recent
Castleford at home
NickyKiss
14
Recent
St Helens
DizzyHeights
197
Recent
RD 8 Huddersfield Giants H
Jrrhino
14
Recent
Smith out ASAP
Shabino
264
Recent
Shopping list for 2025
giddyupoldfe
871
FORUM
LAST
VIEW
TOPIC
POSTER
POSTS
1m
Bradford semi-final tickets
Bullseye
13
2m
Wigan v Sts discussion - THIS THREAD ONLY PLEASE
NickyKiss
2042
2m
2024 Challenge Cup Semi-Finals Draws
Boss Hog
23
3m
Castleford at home
NickyKiss
14
3m
Ticketmaster update
NickyKiss
106
3m
2024 Challenge Cup Semi-Finals Draws
NickyKiss
17
3m
Fitzgibbon
morleys_deck
16
3m
WIRE YED Prediction Competition Leigh Home
sir adrian m
5
4m
Saints A next up - IAKOW
giddyupoldfe
33
5m
St Helens at The Stoop
BigTime
20
FORUM
NEW
TOPICS
TOPIC
POSTER
POSTS
TODAY
Castleford at home
NickyKiss
14
TODAY
David Armstrong potential signing
Jack Gaskell
3
TODAY
France v England Internationals Confirmed for 29th June 2024
RLFANS News
1
NEWS ITEMS
VIEWS
France v England International..
371
Warrington Stun St Helens In C..
726
2024 Challenge Cup Semi-Finals..
719
Wigan Warriors Demolish Woeful..
702
Hull KR Eliminate the Cup Hold..
964
Bradford Bulls Come From Behin..
1232
Bradford Bulls Beat Feathersto..
1616
Giants Thrash FC Again For Top..
1791
Warrington Brush Aside The Rhi..
1324
Wigan Coast to Victory over Le..
1656
Giants Come From Behind For Ea..
2070
Salford Red Devils Defeat Leig..
2353
Catalans Dragons Win See-Saw E..
1786
St Helens Win Derby Game Over ..
1666
Early Season Double for Hull K..
1800
RLFANS Match Centre
Matches on TV
Table 'boards.stats_fixtures' doesn't exist