Before waving the white flag and QUITTING... : Sun Aug 02, 2015 2:34 pm  

... let Uncle Mugwump put things into context.

Whilst the Challenge Cup semi was admittedly a blow - no amount of defeatist sophistry can change the fact that we were four points down with fifteen minutes remaining.

Bear in mind that our props were forced into double-shifts because of the loss of two second row forwards. One of which was having no problems churning up yards against the opposition whilst the other has been our most potent try-scoring forward in the games he's played.

Bear also in mind that over half of Leeds' points were directly attributable to a single player, who is clearly not fit and unable to defend adequately.

I realise that many of you are completely unable to shake off your Leeds Inferiority Complex (from henceforth - LICX) but I very much doubt that Leeds would have performed anything like as well had the boot been on the other foot.

The Cup is gone. Forget about it.

Right now we need to concentrate on winning games that are far more important than any we've played so far in the competition. Champion sides play the COMPETITION - not the opponent. Quite frankly I couldn't care less about three losses to the Not Champions provided we take home the prize.

Given the absolutely horrible fortune we've had with injuries which has robbed us of three or more key personnel in just about every game we've played this season quite frankly I'm amazed we are where we are.

Leaving questions about individual talent to one side - this is UNQUESTIONABLY the most courageous Saints side in my lifetime. Last year it had similarly rotten luck and yet it clawed tooth-and-nail to the Grand Final. Then it had to contend with the minor inconvenience of having NO PLAYMAKERS TO SPEAK OF for 78 minutes - and yet somehow, against all the prophecies and prognostications of the same old crop of doomsayers, it did what was "impossible".

So far this season we've turned in a similarly heroic effort. With all the crap we've had to contend with (no Walsh for half the season and now a crocked Walsh, the long-term loss of two of the form back row forwards in SL, the loss of what was a highly-promising full-back in Lomax to two cruciate ruptures, then the loss of his replacement - who also happened to blow out in similar fashion the season before, the loss of one of the most dependable and potent wingers in SL - then throw in all the other injuries such as Percival's etc. etc) the fact that we are a SINGLE POINT off the top is astonishing. No Saints side in my lifetime has ever scrapped as hard. Under Millward we regularly endured blowouts away from home. Even under Anderson - in his best season - we took some hammerings. This league campaign we've failed to contest two - maybe three games. Isn't that cause for celebration?

I really don't understand many of you. What PRECISELY do you WANT from this side? Or would you still be unhappy if we won every game - for ever more?

I can't stop you guys from whining and bellyaching like the runt jackal in the litter whose nose has been shoved out of the meat. But next time you feel the urge - spare a thought for the lads currently busting a gut - FOR YOU - under incredibly challenging circumstances. No side has EVER had to contend with playing a Grand Final without a single playmaker. And no Saints side I can recall has ever fronted up as courageously at this point in the season whilst having to contend with what seems like an unending injury nightmare.

If the season was over now I'd still be proud of this bunch. They are a team of CHAMPIONS and it's about time some of you gave them the credit they've surely EARNED and DESERVE.

Forget about Leeds. Let them think we're a spent force. Completely incapable of matching them in "all departments" etc. etc. Suits me down to the ground. With the misfortune we've suffered we shouldn't be anywhere close to the top of the table. Just look at Warrington. We have absolutely nothing to lose here. On the other hand Leeds must now win both the Challenge Cup & the Grand Final or be classed as one of the greatest chokes in the history of the competition.

I equate our current position to the end of the second act in Star Wars. Obi Wan Kenobi has been cut down by Vader and everyone is in tears. The righteous forces of the rebellion (us) are hopelessly outgunned "in every department" and yet our plucky heroes are making a last ditch stand - speeding toward the Death Star in their tiny X-Wing fighters with The Force at their backs.

"Biggs, Wedge, let's close it up. We're going in. We're going in full throttle."

Re: Before waving the white flag and QUITTING... : Sun Aug 02, 2015 2:51 pm  

Quoting from Star Wars is very apt, from one fantasy world straight to another

Re: Before waving the white flag and QUITTING... : Sun Aug 02, 2015 3:07 pm  

hatty wrote:

Quoting from Star Wars is very apt, from one fantasy world straight to another

Well, I didn't think you pies would appreciate a reference to a real-life event - such as last year's Grand Final.

I mean, that's gotta HURT.

Re: Before waving the white flag and QUITTING... : Sun Aug 02, 2015 3:15 pm  

Mugwump wrote:

no amount of defeatist sophistry can change the fact that we were four points down with fifteen minutes remaining.

And after fifteen seconds played you were actually drawing with Leeds!

Re: Before waving the white flag and QUITTING... : Sun Aug 02, 2015 3:15 pm  

ThePrinter wrote:

And after fiftee...

[fx: snooze]

Re: Before waving the white flag and QUITTING... : Sun Aug 02, 2015 5:22 pm  

I have a couple of concerns outwith the losses to Leeds.

1. I'd like to see the pack play with aggression again. It's no good being massive if you don't use that size. Saints have a pack of forwards capable of intimidating teams if we only use our aggression again, as we did towards the end of last year. Simply expecting our size to overcome teams isn't going to cut it.

2. I'd like to move away slightly from our defensive rugby of kicking early all the time. We have some very capable backs. Percival especially should be receiving far more ball than he does. Use our threequarters more and earlier in sets. Don't tell me that we aren't capable of starting quickly and blowing teams away in the same manner Leeds have done on us.

3. Offloading. We need to develop this. Our attack at times is all too one dimensional. Is it not common sense that big props, that we have in abundance, attract many defenders ? Is it not therefore common sense that getting the ball out either just prior to the collision or from the collision will allow us to attack space ?

4. Move Walsh in the defensive line. If he can't tackle, shove him to the wing. Wherever you put him, he cannot continue defending alongside Jordan Turner. Those two next to each other in defence is a recipe for disaster.


These improvements would make us a different proposition IMHO. However, the idea that we're done is nonsensical. Second in the table with only the league to play for. All out from here on in.

Re: Before waving the white flag and QUITTING... : Sun Aug 02, 2015 5:27 pm  

SLS wrote:

I have a couple of concerns outwith the losses to Leeds.

1. I'd like to see the pack play with aggression again. It's no good being massive if you don't use that size. Saints have a pack of forwards capable of intimidating teams if we only use our aggression again, as we did towards the end of last year. Simply expecting our size to overcome teams isn't going to cut it.

2. I'd like to move away slightly from our defensive rugby of kicking early all the time. We have some very capable backs. Percival especially should be receiving far more ball than he does. Use our threequarters more and earlier in sets. Don't tell me that we aren't capable of starting quickly and blowing teams away in the same manner Leeds have done on us.

3. Offloading. We need to develop this. Our attack at times is all too one dimensional. Is it not common sense that big props, that we have in abundance, attract many defenders ? Is it not therefore common sense that getting the ball out either just prior to the collision or from the collision will allow us to attack space ?

4. Move Walsh in the defensive line. If he can't tackle, shove him to the wing. Wherever you put him, he cannot continue defending alongside Jordan Turner. Those two next to each other in defence is a recipe for disaster.


These improvements would make us a different proposition IMHO. However, the idea that we're done is nonsensical. Second in the table with only the league to play for. All out from here on in.

Agree with all that.

Re: Before waving the white flag and QUITTING... : Sun Aug 02, 2015 6:52 pm  

SLS wrote:

I have a couple of concerns outwith the losses to Leeds.

1. I'd like to see the pack play with aggression again. It's no good being massive if you don't use that size. Saints have a pack of forwards capable of intimidating teams if we only use our aggression again, as we did towards the end of last year. Simply expecting our size to overcome teams isn't going to cut it.

I don't disagree with you here. Although we mustn't lose sight of the fact that we are playing the COMPETITION. This is a very important point because Nathan Brown gave an absolute masterclass in how to get yourself into a position to win the title - without giving a great deal away. Compare Saints last eight games to all those which came before. There was a noticeable switch up in gears with the team suddenly rolling out tactics which were novel in the context of the entire season.

2. I'd like to move away slightly from our defensive rugby of kicking early all the time. We have some very capable backs. Percival especially should be receiving far more ball than he does. Use our threequarters more and earlier in sets. Don't tell me that we aren't capable of starting quickly and blowing teams away in the same manner Leeds have done on us.

I'd like to see a more expansive game but I do think Cunningham's committed to this conservative approach for now. I really don't have a problem with kicking early - provided we put the ball in the right place. Down Zak Hardaker's throat is the perfect example of kicking to the wrong place. If we are going to kick it's either got to go over the tram lines or bisect the fullback and winger. If we are close to the line - force the opposition to escape from their in goal area. There's not a team in the competition which fancies three or four-dozen tackles fronting up against our pack on or near their try line.

3. Offloading. We need to develop this. Our attack at times is all too one dimensional. Is it not common sense that big props, that we have in abundance, attract many defenders ? Is it not therefore common sense that getting the ball out either just prior to the collision or from the collision will allow us to attack space ?

I agree with you. Although I don't think all that much development is needed. Recall that at the beginning of the season Saints were tearing sides apart running one prop off the shoulder. The youngsters especially seemed very proficient with this tactic. Then, for reasons best known to the coaching staff, we suddenly stopped. Part of the problem with offloading is we have no one really who is capable of exploiting broken field situations. Walsh can barely put one foot in front of the other at the moment and Burns isn't quick either. The only other candidate is Roby - but he's already running close to maximum effort doing what he's doing.

4. Move Walsh in the defensive line. If he can't tackle, shove him to the wing. Wherever you put him, he cannot continue defending alongside Jordan Turner. Those two next to each other in defence is a recipe for disaster.

As I've said - either Walsh is 100% fit or he isn't. If he isn't he shouldn't be in the side. Right now I doubt he's even close to 60% fit and he's a liability of nightmare proportions in defence. We have to be realistic and ruthlessly unsentimental. Everyone knows that Walsh firing on all cylinders is a class act. But right now we don't have that Luke Walsh. As things stand I'd switch Charnock to scrum half until Wilkin returns. Leave Walsh out of the side until he's fully capable of justifying his significant earnings.

These improvements would make us a different proposition IMHO. However, the idea that we're done is nonsensical. Second in the table with only the league to play for. All out from here on in.

I'm very happy with how the side has performed this season under incredibly difficult and challenging circumstances. And let's not forget this is a rookie coach who lacks anything like the experience those at the other top clubs possess.

Any side dumb enough to write us off as "no hopers" in the playoffs deserves everything it gets.

Re: Before waving the white flag and QUITTING... : Sun Aug 02, 2015 7:14 pm  

Offloading is a big thing for me. We're playing such conservative rugby but I'm not having that we don't have the personnel to exploit broken field positions. We've done it on a number of occasions this season and scored some great tries. Swift has gone full length a few times.

Reminds me a bit of 99 under Hanley. Only when Millward came along did we suddenly take off the shackles. The philosophy of the club is to chance your arm, offload, move the ball with fast hands...I hate that we've come away from that, however that's probably due to not having half backs for yonks.

Re: Before waving the white flag and QUITTING... : Sun Aug 02, 2015 7:25 pm  

Twentyman wrote:

Offloading is a big thing for me. We're playing such conservative rugby but I'm not having that we don't have the personnel to exploit broken field positions. We've done it on a number of occasions this season and scored some great tries. Swift has gone full length a few times.

Sure, Swifty is an excellent broken field runner. Unfortunately he's standing 40 meters away from our pack. If one of our props hits the tackle, spins and offloads we do not have anyone in the immediate vicinity who is capable of exploiting gaps in the defence. Yes, Roby could do the job. But you can't seriously expect Roby to do MORE than he's already doing?