Re: Who to keep. : Thu Aug 09, 2012 9:35 pm  

on_the_charge wrote:

Ive allways said Andy Lynch would have been ideal failing that Chris Hill......

Hull paid a big fee for lynch so he was a no go.

Hill in hindsight would have been perfect but nobody knows how a young prop coming from a lower league will adapt to super league.

Jason king or kite would have been ideal, both are top quality props and both offer good leadership.

Re: Who to keep. : Fri Aug 10, 2012 12:08 am  

Saddened! wrote:

That's a big allegation you are making there. Warrington aren't cheating the cap, they are just better at developing a squad than we are.

They may not be cheating per se, but anyone looking at the depth and quality of Warrington's squad and the seemingly never ending stream of quality players they still continue to be able to bring in and fit under their cap might find cause to wonder how exactly they manage it... Either Warrington is an utterly spectacularly fabulous place to play RL in and players are happy to accept less of a wedge to go there than they could get at other clubs, or their accountants, HR and lawyers deserve Olympic Gold Medals...

Saddened! wrote:

Whoever decided it was a good move to sign Lance Hohaia needs to be removed from the club, if they've not already left.

Agreed - a desperation signing. But sadly further proof of the lack of available quality that we had to go out and pay a lot of money (ambition again anyone?) on a wild punt on a player to play a non-natural position to him as there was simply noone else available.

Saddened! wrote:

The signings of Flanagan and Laffranchi as a prop have also turned out to be terrible.

Disagree - Flanagan is a very good grafter who'll only get better under a non-clueless coach. LaFranchi has been a very good signing - maybe not the ultimate answer at prop but a fantastic signing nevertheless who'll do big things for us next season used properly.

Saddened! wrote:

Perhaps you are right, we're just doing a poor job of developing a squad. But whatever the cause, surely not signing players can't be the way out of it?

Again: what players? We desperately need a half and frickin' Smith was the best player available for lawk's sake. I'm frankly more than happy that we didn't enter a bidding war over him as he just wouldn't have been worth it. We haven't got the money to pay a fee for Brough or Chase (even if the rumours of Cas wanting rid at a cut-price are true). We've no quota for an Antipodean (curse the skies for Hohaia again). Who else is there? The reason we panic-signed Hohaia is that there just isn't anybody. Criticise the reliance on the youth policy if you like, but giving another season to see what Brown can make of Wheeler and Gaskell is by far our best option right now.

Re: Who to keep. : Fri Aug 10, 2012 12:20 am  

Saddened! wrote:

Their players, whilst not world beaters, are a lot better physically than ours, stronger and more aggressive. They out enthuse us and are far more aggressive.

True. That's down to coaching/tactics, training/fitness and psychology/motivation, 3 areas we've been way behind the curve on for a long, long time. It is not down to basic player quality of player. Only the basic superior quality of many of our players has kept us in the top 4 and in trophy contention since DA left. How many other first-team squads in SL could have finished 3rd last season and 4th this with the kind of injuries we suffered last year and the appallingly limited tactics this? Warrington and noone else, and we've established that we simply don't have the money with 2 million a year losses and a brand new stadium to compete with their bottomless pockets and loophole-finding. Put Hock or Carvell into our setup and they'd look demotivated plodders lacking aggression in big games that you'd be screaming for us to be rid of in no time. Put Wilkin into either of the W's setups and you'd be enthusing about him as the kind of player Saints need to be showing the ambition to go out and sign inside six months. Wholesale mass personnel changes are simply just not the answer - making the most of what we have most definitely is.

Re: Who to keep. : Fri Aug 10, 2012 12:25 am  

dubairl wrote:

are you lot still trying to convince your selves that player for player you have the better squad?

here my list:

tomkins
charnley
goulding been fantastic this season and is a true Centre
carmont wish he was only 23 so he could carry on
pat richards when fit
finch
tommy
smith don't know why you lot don't rate him because looked very good so far and i wouldn't swap him for any of your halves
lima
McIlorum
mossop
hock
hansen
o'loughlin

and as you have included fringe players in your list

dudson
farrell
powell
hughes
thornley/gelling

but lima and tommy are leaving. finch hasn't signed for any one yet and carmont hasn't decided

*sigh*

Go away please - I can't be arsed after past head-to-wall interfaces with you to waste my time trying to have a debate with you...

Re: Who to keep. : Fri Aug 10, 2012 1:16 am  

The players can be individual world beaters but without a top coach they are just a bunch of lads running around without a clue not too disimilar to what we saw against Warrington this week.

Listening to Joynt on SLSM this week it was great to hear him talk about Hughes, McRae, Hanley, Millward. Inspiring coaches! DA was an inspirational coach also. The coach will always set apart the best from the almost theres. Look at Warrington with Cullen and Lowes, they were going nowhere but had the resources (Simon Moran) to bring on good players. That has completely changed under Smith. Leeds too, before Smith (again) and McLennan they had minor success with Murray and disaster under Bell and Powell. Since DA left we have been the almosts, granted we lost our golden generation in the process. Potter was an almost, Simmons was a never. Rush/KC will be a never too. I dont like saying it but i can see Brown being the almost. Watching a programme about Mal Meninga on Sky showed that he is the inspiration this side/town/fan base needs. A team that combines the flamboyance of the Millward era with the steel of Anderson and a passion mainly for winning.

A revamp is needed from the top down. A head over heart scenario. Wellens has to go, Gardner has to go, Flannery is gone, Hohaia should join him. Magennis will never be good enough, Meli gets a stay of execution, Shenton has shipped off already. Yes we missed out on big signings like Hill, Ellis, Lynch. But we needed to stay out of the fee-paying medium risk market because of the investment we were making off the field.
We have a ground owned by US. A state of the art facility designed specifically for St Helens RLFC. Speccies will moan and groan about how their money is spent on god awful players giving us mediocre rugby but as cold hearted as it sounds id much rather be stood at Langtree Park than Knowsley Road. KR had its teams, its traditions, its history. It also had its leaks, its rust, its lack of bogs and structual damage that was destroying the club from its very soul. Heck we didnt even take money from the burger vans! Times got tough, speccies got annoyed the new stadium plans were taking forever to come through and the world crashed. I feel for EMc because he had to make a choice, the ground or the team. Being the businessman he is and the lover of Saints i didnt envy his decision. He rightly chose the stadium, so what if we get beat in Grand Finals, there'll be more. Yeah they hurt and its painful to watch teams creep up on us and our past dominance. I'll look at Bradford and think that could have been us, i'll look back to Wigan and think they had their "success" and they went through a dry spell.

We were blessed with Long, Sculthorpe, Newlove, Iro, Albert, Lyon, Gidley, Shiels, Cunningham, Martyn, Joynt, Sullivan et al but so were Wigan with Offiah, Edwards et al and so are Leeds now with Burrow, McGuire, Sinfield, Peacock etc. Our time will come around again, we now have the stadium we wanted so we can start to build a team to make history once again. Its a long process but when it comes good, which it will, then we'll be winning in pretty much every way. But first, looking past the upcoming Brown era, EMc needs to start convincing Meninga that St Helens is lovely in the summer time because the Saints legacy begins with him at the helm.

Feel free to ridicule!

Re: Who to keep. : Fri Aug 10, 2012 12:08 pm  

Ande wrote:

The players can be individual world beaters but without a top coach they are just a bunch of lads running around without a clue not too disimilar to what we saw against Warrington this week.

Listening to Joynt on SLSM this week it was great to hear him talk about Hughes, McRae, Hanley, Millward. Inspiring coaches! DA was an inspirational coach also. The coach will always set apart the best from the almost theres. Look at Warrington with Cullen and Lowes, they were going nowhere but had the resources (Simon Moran) to bring on good players. That has completely changed under Smith. Leeds too, before Smith (again) and McLennan they had minor success with Murray and disaster under Bell and Powell. Since DA left we have been the almosts, granted we lost our golden generation in the process. Potter was an almost, Simmons was a never. Rush/KC will be a never too. I dont like saying it but i can see Brown being the almost. Watching a programme about Mal Meninga on Sky showed that he is the inspiration this side/town/fan base needs. A team that combines the flamboyance of the Millward era with the steel of Anderson and a passion mainly for winning.

A revamp is needed from the top down. A head over heart scenario. Wellens has to go, Gardner has to go, Flannery is gone, Hohaia should join him. Magennis will never be good enough, Meli gets a stay of execution, Shenton has shipped off already. Yes we missed out on big signings like Hill, Ellis, Lynch. But we needed to stay out of the fee-paying medium risk market because of the investment we were making off the field.
We have a ground owned by US. A state of the art facility designed specifically for St Helens RLFC. Speccies will moan and groan about how their money is spent on god awful players giving us mediocre rugby but as cold hearted as it sounds id much rather be stood at Langtree Park than Knowsley Road. KR had its teams, its traditions, its history. It also had its leaks, its rust, its lack of bogs and structual damage that was destroying the club from its very soul. Heck we didnt even take money from the burger vans! Times got tough, speccies got annoyed the new stadium plans were taking forever to come through and the world crashed. I feel for EMc because he had to make a choice, the ground or the team. Being the businessman he is and the lover of Saints i didnt envy his decision. He rightly chose the stadium, so what if we get beat in Grand Finals, there'll be more. Yeah they hurt and its painful to watch teams creep up on us and our past dominance. I'll look at Bradford and think that could have been us, i'll look back to Wigan and think they had their "success" and they went through a dry spell.

We were blessed with Long, Sculthorpe, Newlove, Iro, Albert, Lyon, Gidley, Shiels, Cunningham, Martyn, Joynt, Sullivan et al but so were Wigan with Offiah, Edwards et al and so are Leeds now with Burrow, McGuire, Sinfield, Peacock etc. Our time will come around again, we now have the stadium we wanted so we can start to build a team to make history once again. Its a long process but when it comes good, which it will, then we'll be winning in pretty much every way. But first, looking past the upcoming Brown era, EMc needs to start convincing Meninga that St Helens is lovely in the summer time because the Saints legacy begins with him at the helm.

Feel free to ridicule!

What's there to ridicule?

Re: Who to keep. : Fri Aug 10, 2012 12:27 pm  

Is this notion that we've had to cut costs due to the stadium genuine? Are we spending less than the cap currently? I've seen no suggestion from the club that we are. I've always thought we've taken our eye off the ball in terms of the squad because of the work on the stadium, which obviously and rightly took priority, but it doesn't look like actual spending on the playing side has diminished, just the care in ensuring it's spent well?

Re: Who to keep. : Fri Aug 10, 2012 12:33 pm  

Well we gave new contracts to the likes of Lomax, Wheeler, Foster, Wilkin etc over the last few years so I can see us operating toward the top of the cap. We do have players who I wouldn't pick myself but a good portion of this situation is down to poor management choices and the poor recruitment choices they have made.

I hope against hope that Brown will shake things up, but my optimism has been tempered slightly with the re-signing of Wellens.

Re: Who to keep. : Fri Aug 10, 2012 12:44 pm  

Carlos Alberto wrote:

against hope that Brown will shake things up, but my optimism has been tempered slightly with the re-signing of Wellens.

I'd love to hear an honest assessment of that from Eamon. Not the official club statement where it praises him and calls him the best fullback in the world, but hear him candidly tell us why they've done it. Sentimentality is the only reason I can think of, yet we've shown absolutely none of that to any player I can remember in the past. Do they really intend to play him at fullback for another season when he's clearly physically and mentally broken now? He's the complete opposite of the backs Brown normally goes for. Turner could be argued to be a classic Brown signing, pacy, powerful and youthful, so I can understand that one despite his deficiencies, but Wello just doesn't fit.

Re: Who to keep. : Sat Aug 11, 2012 9:06 am  

Brown likes to play people out of position to try and bring different elements out of their game, he also likes his hookers in numbers. So how about this line up

Makinson
Turner
Wellens
Jones
Meli
Lomax
Gaskell
Perry
Roby
TP
Manu
La Franki
Wilkin

LMS
Another prop
Lance
Clough