: Thu Feb 26, 2009 3:49 pm
Stirlingshire Saint wrote:
When during the WC specifically can you highlight? This is bearing in mind that during the WC, England as a whole squad looked rubbish due to the superiority of their opponents. The likes of Lockyer and co have the ability to isolate top quality NRL wingmen every week. It is hardly surprising they can do the same to a SL winger. With the exception of the WC, you are refering back to the Gardner of at least 2 years ago, which I refuse to accept as an argument.
saints35 bulls0 wrote:
which try/tries in particular was he responsible for conceding?
I was there, and whilst he didnt exactly set the world alight (like the whole squad) I cant recall any mistakes he made.
Specifically? 32 minutes in against Australia, Gardner jumps out of position, coming in to attempt to take Slater (who was receiving a wedge ball) when it wasn't necessary. There were two Australians left outside Gardner and, had he stayed out on his man, Inglis would have had no room on the outside of the line and the four (yes, FOUR) sliding defenders would have got across to cover. A poor decision, irrelevant of the quality of the opposition.
55 minutes in in the same game, Gardner bites on a fire/face (whatever you want to call it) ball from Slater, taking the centre who was already covered, leaving Monaghan with a stroll in down the touch line. There were two men covering Inglis, two who would have got to Slater and a covering fullback to clean up if either of these had somehow beaten their two tacklers, yet Gardner still jammed in to take Inglis. Another awful decision, irrespective of the opponents.
Now, I'm not saying Gardner was solely responsible for these tries nor I am saying he's the only player who makes these type of mistakes (both Smith and Calderwood were poor with their decision making as well in the WC), but they are mistakes and mistakes that a top winger shouldn't make.
Stirlingshire Saint wrote:
So we are discounting the fact that Gardner and Raynor have fairly equal stats purely on the basis that one is at Hull and one at Saints? Have you ever thought there may be a reason in that? Gardner profits mainly from his centre in the last 10 metres of the field. If anybody had the nous to actually watch Saints and not listen to the balls the Sky team say, they would realise that Saints rarely look to isolate the winger except when within 10-15 metres of the tryline (and occasionally from deep in our own 20). This leaves Gardner with basically his chances to finish off in the corner, which he is very good at and his chances to support the pack with scoots from dummy half, which he is very good at also.
As always with Gardner, his stats and performances are to discarded by all because he has a very good centre inside him apparently, yet Raynors not because he has the misfortune to play in a garbage side.
I'm not discounting anything, I'm highlighting the ridiculousness of your claim that Raynor only runs 'sideways'.
Stirlingshire Saint wrote:
It gets better!!!!
Raynor is justified in his odd cock up as 'it happens' yet Gardner isn't?
Am I supposed to have a real debate with you when it is evident that you are simply another biased, one eyed fan (although with the ability to type better than most)?
By 'very rarely' I meant 'almost never'. To the point were the only example I can remember is him coming in to attempt to tackle Gidley last season, only for him to flick it out the back and leave Tyrer with a walk-in. This is in contrast with Gardner, who I've seen much less of in the same time and yet have seen make these mistakes much more often.
And as for the 'biased, one-eyed' comment, I'll freely admit that both Tom Briscoe and Calderwood make the same poor judgements far too often. Sing and Blacklock did as well, although less frequently, but still more often than Raynor.
Thanks for the patronisation as well.
Stirlingshire Saint wrote:
Gardner and defensive failings could only be mentioned in the same sentence by someone who hasn't bothered to watch him and is still basing an opinion on performances from 2/3 years ago,
Go and watch some tape of the SL performances of Gardner from the past 2 years and come back. Forget the WC, all that proved is that every single British RL player is overrated beyond belief and not a match for their NRL counterparts (unless they play for Hull I assume).
saints35 bulls0 wrote:
again, any definitive examples you would care to share?
as there are so many examples of Gardner's defensive failings, I'm sure you wont struggle to recall some.
I'll just pick some examples from the past season, using the highlights available on the SL website (I've got a good memory, but not good enough to remember every detail of every game for a team I don't support. I'm basing my opinion of Gardner's defensive frailties on what I remember feeling at the time, rather than recalling specifics).
Round 14, 79 minutes in, Gardner jumps the line to take Raguin, gets nowhere near and Greenshields wraps around to score. The were plenty of Saints players sliding across (Gidley managed to get outside Greenshields) so there would have been plenty of men to take Raguin who got the ball 10m inside of where Greenshields crossed the line, but Gardner's decision took away any chance of stopping the try. Had he stayed out, there would have been no room to attack and it would have taken a poor miss or a special piece of play to score.
If I was being picky, I'd say that in Round 17 against Bradford, six minutes in, he should have been wider, dragging Long out further. That would have mean Long could cover Hape and Gardner would not have had to come in, leaving Tadulala free. I can let him off that one, as Long shouldn't have let Hape get so far outside him, although I would have to question the communication as there was a lot of room left when there really didn't need to be, with eight Saints players on that side of the pitch against five Bradford attackers.
Round 18 against Leeds, after 63 minutes, Gardner comes in to take Senior (who the sliding defence would have got to), leaving Donald with an easy try when Gardner fails to make the tackle before the pass. There's doubt as to whether the slide would have stopped Senior, but all doubt about a try being scored was removed due to Gardner's poor decision.
A slightly odd one this, but that doesn't negate the poor quality decision made. Early on against Huddersfield in Round 26, with the play broken after a scrappy kick play, Huddersfield get two on two against Long and Gardner. Long has his man (in the centre channel) covered and Gardner comes in to take him as well, despite the only threat being from the winger directly opposite him. The centre passes a split second before Long completes the tackle and, with Gardner stacked in for no reason, the winger gets away and a try results.
The last example I'll give, 73 minutes into the CC final, Gardner comes in to make a tackle, fails to prevent the offload and a try is scored by Raynor. There were plenty of Saints defenders covering who would have got across to both Manu and Yeaman. If Gardner had stayed on Raynor, a try wouldn't have come as easily, but him coming in made in inevitable.
That's only four/five examples, but that is only half a season's worth and is only counting plays that lead directly to tries coming from the exact same mistake. For a team that doesn't concede many tries anyway, that is quite a lot to be letting in in such a short space of time by making identical poor decisions.
