: Tue Jul 07, 2009 8:43 am  

AaronBull wrote:

There's several areas where it is segregated, areas like Manningham and Lidget Green immediately spring to mind.
However, your next post sums up what I was going to say, you lived in Idle with few problems, and that justifies its a multi-cultural area, as are other districts within Bradford.

I'm not sure we can class one mixed family, as that is what it was, can be used as an example of an area being multi-cultural, if there had been. It's hard to use my experience as any kind of evidence and justification anyway as we lived as "English" a lifestyle as any other family in the area.

My mum works in an inner-city primary school and has done for almost 20 years now, in her opinion the segregation is getting worse, the intake at her school is now pretty much 100% of Pakistani descent, with the odd Eastern European who doesn't last very long, and the numbers who speak some English on entering the school get fewer and fewer every year. If anything the "community" as their self-styled "leaders" like to call them are becoming more and more isolated.

: Tue Jul 07, 2009 8:46 am  

Bradford Badger wrote:

snip

I cycled to Bradford along Mannigham Lane nearly every work day for 16 years. I had several incidents of racial abuse & a few of things thrown at me from cars & footpath. All by Asian kids. But by far the most worrying aspect is the 'macho' behaviour of Asian youths in cars; I know it is a problem among most young men, but the extent of it, & resultant danger, is far worse in Bradford than anywhere else I have encountered. The fast car does seem to be a vehicle (!) for young Asian men in Bradford to express their confidence/independence/anger/whatever.

: Tue Jul 07, 2009 8:56 am  

tigertot wrote:

I cycled to Bradford along Mannigham Lane nearly every work day for 16 years. I had several incidents of racial abuse & a few of things thrown at me from cars & footpath. All by Asian kids. But by far the most worrying aspect is the 'macho' behaviour of Asian youths in cars; I know it is a problem among most young men, but the extent of it, & resultant danger, is far worse in Bradford than anywhere else I have encountered. The fast car does seem to be a vehicle (!) for young Asian men in Bradford to express their confidence/independence/anger/whatever.

I can promise you having lived in Birmingham, London (Battersea) and Nottingham that this is not unique to Bradford and not unique to Asian lads. It's also not a new development in youth culture - bikes, scooters and cars have lways performed roughly the same role, cars are just cheaper now.

Personally I think there’s just a general social malaise across Britain today. It’s the way that people respond to it that is different in Bradford. People see trouble, see Asians, put 2 and 2 together, get 5, assume that Asians are bad and so vent their frustration and anger at this scapegoat. Go to somewhere like Hull and the same problems are apparent but without an ethnic split for people to focus their anger on.

: Tue Jul 07, 2009 9:26 am  

tigertot wrote:

That would be ideal, but as a large number of Bradford's Asians, as I understand it, come from peasant areas of Pakistan, predominantly Mirpur, it is unrealistic. What is essential is access to English lessons when they arrive, whether this should be compulsory & how it would be funded is open to discussion.

You're correct in what you say, but even if English lessons were available (which they are actually) getting people to attend is a problem.

The way many Asian, predominanlty Muslim, communities and households are structured doesn't allow the freedom to the females that we would accept as a norm.

You're not likely to see droves of Pakistani mums trotting off to evening classes.

Of course, these mums are bringing up the kids, who as a result of their mothers lack of English literacy, end up entering school with an appalling grasp of English. I've seen this first at my kids school.

So, these kids are on the back foot straight away. Many can be sorted, particularly in a school like ours go to, because its a decent mix, ant there's a good chance of pulling them around, but I can't say the same for predominantly Asian schools.

My mother is an immigrant. The first thing she did was learn English. But she was allowed and encouraged to.

: Tue Jul 07, 2009 9:48 am  

aj cougar wrote:

You're correct in what you say, but even if English lessons were available (which they are actually) getting people to attend is a problem.

The way many Asian, predominanlty Muslim, communities and households are structured doesn't allow the freedom to the females that we would accept as a norm.

You're not likely to see droves of Pakistani mums trotting off to evening classes.

Of course, these mums are bringing up the kids, who as a result of their mothers lack of English literacy, end up entering school with an appalling grasp of English. I've seen this first at my kids school.

So, these kids are on the back foot straight away. Many can be sorted, particularly in a school like ours go to, because its a decent mix, ant there's a good chance of pulling them around, but I can't say the same for predominantly Asian schools.

My mother is an immigrant. The first thing she did was learn English. But she was allowed and encouraged to.

Which is why I questionned whether it would need to be compulsory.

: Tue Jul 07, 2009 10:03 am  

tigertot wrote:

Which is why I questionned whether it would need to be compulsory.

Personally I think they should be. Free lessons are available (I helped deliver some a couple of years ago) and while the recent immigrants from Eastern Europe seem to be keen to take advantage of these the "Pakistani community" seem unwilling.

My dad came over in the early days of the mass immigration from Pakistan and, along with most of his peers, learnt the language - however the families of the initial wave started arriving and once the numbers started to build I guess it no longer became essential to do so, as there were plenty of other people around who you could speak urdu to.

I think aj also makes a valid point about the role and status of women.

No government will ever make it compulsory for people to take English lessons because certain factions would kick up a fuss, I've been called a racist myself for saying I believe it should be compulsory, but without it any efforts to completely integrate our communities will be undermimed.

: Tue Jul 07, 2009 10:17 am  

Block5Bull wrote:

I can promise you having lived in Birmingham, London (Battersea) and Nottingham that this is not unique to Bradford and not unique to Asian lads. It's also not a new development in youth culture - bikes, scooters and cars have lways performed roughly the same role, cars are just cheaper now.

I agree that it's a problem across the board whether it's white or Asian young men. I live a long way from Bradford in a very white area, but we have the same problems, particularly on warm summer nights with lads racing each other and tearing around to impress girlfriends. There is a subtle difference however and that is the car fulfils a specific role for the Asian lads, whilst a lot of the white lads will hang out in pubs etc (with all the resultant problems) Asian lads have little in the way of 'free' social space - that is outside of observation by family, biradari networks etc. The car is therefore the social space, a place to meet, hang out, listen to music and escape.

What worries me is that a lot of this bravado and threatening behaviour from white and Asian young men does get backed up by actual violence. I admit to being a pain in the ar$e when i was younger but generally had enough investment in my future not to push things too far. A lot of what i see now indicates people have no sense of their own possibilities or idea that there are things to look forward to that shouldn't be risked by getting sent down. If you have no sense of respect and possibility in your own life it's unlikely that you'll give a toss about anyone else. Consequently you end up with this arrogant, agressive, macho nonsense that is all about the moment and what a big man they are, which of course is exactly what they're not. Young people are always volatile, but they need a sense of purpose and investment in their lives, if that's missing you've got problems.

: Tue Jul 07, 2009 10:53 am  

Asim wrote:

I think aj also makes a valid point about the role and status of women.

I come from a society where women of my mum's age knew their role & status. Consequently she has spent 60 years serving my dad's increasing needs, to the complete detriment of her liberty. I had this discussion with my partner last night, she thinks my mum should have buggered off years ago, I wish she had but understand why she hasn't. This situation is, hopefully, uncommon now in traditional UK society, probably largely due to access to the media.
I believe that UK Pakistani families bring in uneducated peasant women because it gives control over these women, & probably deliberately exclude them from education. As I have posted on here before, my partner did some equal opportunities training at Bradford Uni, the head of the section had recently been on a city visit to Mirpur. Her opinion was that there is more progress being made with female emancipation in Pakistan than in Bradford.