Re: Odsal Sporting Village : Wed Apr 21, 2010 5:40 pm  

If only 7k sign up, how much does each person pay? How does their cheap season ticket deal work anyway? Has any other club taken it up?

Re: Odsal Sporting Village : Wed Apr 21, 2010 5:51 pm  

af wrote:

If only 7k sign up, how much does each person pay? How does their cheap season ticket deal work anyway? Has any other club taken it up?

Its subsidised by lawn and rhodes in hope that attendances will rise and bar takings etc will compensate them for amount their laying out. obviously not breaking even. Thats why I always find it a bit misleading when city fans go on about getting higher attendances than ours. Cant help but wonder what their attendances would look like without the cheap tickets.

Re: Odsal Sporting Village : Wed Apr 21, 2010 6:05 pm  

mat wrote:

Its subsidised by lawn and rhodes in hope that attendances will rise and bar takings etc will compensate them for amount their laying out. obviously not breaking even.

You should do a bit of research before spouting off with your wet dreams about City being about to go bust.

The bar takings, all catering income and all income from the merchandising department is franchised out to EMC and Surridge Sports, City have a guaranteed income from that whether they average 4000 or 14000. These deals were put in place before the cheap season ticket offer.

It has been outlined in the T&A and at fans forums at Valley Parade in the past - the money City make from outsourcing these contracts, and from leasing office space covers the costs of playing at Valley Parade - the season ticket/matchday ticket income is basically the budget for the staff, Lawn loaned the club some money last season to push the boat out but McCall vexed it up against a wall, he took half his loan back from a sell-on clause City made money on last summer but nothing extra was put in this season, however he and the Rhodes' have intimated they may put their hands in their pockets again for next season.

Unless anything has changed dramatically since last August/they were lying then that's the situation at VP (a stadium which exists unlike the mythical OSV).

Meanwhile up at Odsal the Bulls lose money every time they open the gates, slightly improved form doesn't really seem to have re-ignited any sort of feelgood factor in the general public and the stadium is hideously expensive to maintain, and may not even be fit for purpose in a few years time. In a time when public spending needs to be reigned in the Bulls are relying on public money magically appearing in a City that was left to rot even in the economic good times.

Try to make out that the Bulls hold all the cards in this scenario if you want, but the truth is neither club holds a particularly good hand.

Re: Odsal Sporting Village : Wed Apr 21, 2010 7:44 pm  

"however he and the Rhodes' have intimated they may put their hands in their pockets again for next season."

And if not? What happens then?

Re: Odsal Sporting Village : Wed Apr 21, 2010 8:00 pm  

bobsmyuncle wrote:

And if not? What happens then?

They won't retain the manager and they'll have another team with little realistic chance of gaining promotion, crowds will drop off which will affect the income the club can expect if they want to renew the franchising deals which run out at the end of next season, then season tickets will have to be priced at a more realistic rate.

Overly simplistic I know, but 4500 punters paying £300 is, financially, better than 7000 paying the £138 that the tickets were on sale for in December and another 2000 buying them for £184 now - because of the franchise deals, negotiated when average crowds were 9000 and relegation was coming, City haven't been able to cash in on the larger attendances as much as they might have - though given the circumstances at the time I can see why a guaranteed income covering the rent etc was seen as a good idea.

Re: Odsal Sporting Village : Wed Apr 21, 2010 8:40 pm  

Overly simplistic I know, but 4500 punters paying £300 is, financially, better than 7000 paying the £138 that the tickets were on sale for in December and another 2000 buying them for £184 now - because of the franchise deals, negotiated when average crowds were 9000 and relegation was coming, City haven't been able to cash in on the larger attendances as much as they might have - though given the circumstances at the time I can see why a guaranteed income covering the rent etc was seen as a good idea.

I agree that the franchisee was as good idea at the time to create fixed income, especially if it was calculated to cover all stadium costs. Presumably the deal was based on estimated attendances of 9000+ by the offer of cheap pre-paid season tickets.
I see your calculations re 4,500 punters @ £300 as valid but surely this would impact on potential income from franchaisees on the next deal where income from them would not cover stadium costs.
9,000 ticket buyers, even at a lower price, would create a similar ticket income and a much greater franchise income
It must also be considered whether the franchise income was fixed as opposed to stadium costs annually rising in line with inflation.
I do have a loyalty to Bradford City and concerns about their future. The main one is about cash flow.
Lets hope they can work out a survival statedgy, cos selling next years tickets to pay for this years expenses is not a good thing.

Re: Odsal Sporting Village : Wed Apr 21, 2010 9:16 pm  

bobsmyuncle wrote:

I agree that the franchisee was as good idea at the time to create fixed income, especially if it was calculated to cover all stadium costs. Presumably the deal was based on estimated attendances of 9000+ by the offer of cheap pre-paid season tickets.
I see your calculations re 4,500 punters @ £300 as valid but surely this would impact on potential income from franchaisees on the next deal where income from them would not cover stadium costs.
9,000 ticket buyers, even at a lower price, would create a similar ticket income and a much greater franchise income
It must also be considered whether the franchise income was fixed as opposed to stadium costs annually rising in line with inflation.
I do have a loyalty to Bradford City and concerns about their future. The main one is about cash flow.
Lets hope they can work out a survival statedgy, cos selling next years tickets to pay for this years expenses is not a good thing.

According to what was said at previous fans forums season ticket income is/was ringfenced to be used in the season it applied to. So as long as that is the case then that isn't an issue.*

As far as I can remember the cheap tickets hadn't been mooted when the franchises were negotiated, so I don't know if the franchise holders got a good deal or not, it definitely hadn't kciked in when they were announced and I doubt City could have guaranteed a 14.5k average attendance in League 2 (which happened in the first season of the deal) when they were struggling in league one getting 9k so I can't see how City would have maximised their income, though obviously I am not privy to the exact details.

If crowds don't hold up next season then obviously that will impact on any future deals City negotiate for the catering/merchandise etc, however neither operator has proved popular with the supporters (the merchandise is horrendous) and there is a lot more expertise on the board now compared to then, so it is unclear what route the club will go down when the deals come up for re-negotiation, they may choose to take it back in-house.

IIRC, and if what we are being told by the directors is correct, City are one of the few football league clubs breaking even at the moment, they aren't generating lots of money (and won't in this division) but I don't think financial oblivion is as close as some on here like to consistently insinuate, though continuing stagnation (or even decline) on the playing side of things will have a negative impact before too long.

At the moment slow ticket sales will only impact on the budget for the players, all essentials are taken care of, but as you say obviously that income will not hold up with a significant slump in numbers.

*Of course there is also the chance that the information given out by the powers that be is a load of balls, I tend to take any statements about this sort of thing with a large pinch of salt when it comes from sports clubs nowadays.

Re: Odsal Sporting Village : Wed Apr 21, 2010 10:01 pm  

Thanks for your overview, its honest and informative.
Perhaps more expertise on the Board is the most important.
Franchising anything comes with guanteed income BUT a cost in that the club is not best represented in the products... catering, mercandise etc. Thats something for the new guys on the Board to consider.
If income from next season's tickets is ring fenced against next year's expenditure then thats OK, though I think we both share some concerns about that.
My primary worry for City (a bit similar to the Bulls) is that that their property is held by someone else udrer a lease that is more valuable than the saleable value of the property itself. I expect that this makes the Landlord intransigent to any move away from the site.

Re: Odsal Sporting Village : Thu Apr 22, 2010 9:40 am  

the best way to view Lawn is that he went to the same charm school as Chris Caisley. He means well, and has to a point, put his money where his mouth is, but he has a point! Who owns the new state of the art Tong training venue , the council. could the bulls have afforded somewhere like that on their own, probably not.

The council, along with the PCT has a duty to encourage healthy lifestyles of all living in the district. what better way to get kids involved than having successful, thriving profesional sports teams, playing and training at modern stadia, and training in venues that can welcome community involvement?

I live in Wibsey and support the bulls, so would welcome the OSV happening. but i also support City, and work with local kids ona daily basis. The reality is that the best use of the councils promised £15m would be to house both clubs at VP and then develop Odsal / richard dunnes as a training / community venue. The top carpark could be converted to the new plastic grass pitch that is hired out like goals is, and the facilities could be made available much more cheaply to local clubs and community groups. if that happened, then the council could probably secure more money in grants from it???

[Bulliac]

Re: Odsal Sporting Village : Sat Apr 24, 2010 10:50 am  

Lawn is speaking for Bradford City. As a board member of the board, and chairman, he has a legal duty to do his best for the shareholders, and this is exactly what he's doing. City have a large annual rent to pay and bringing the Bulls in to share would certainly help him in that regard. Whilst in many ways I wish him (and City) all the best, none of this can work if it isn't mutually beneficial, and to be honest I can see many benefits to City and few benefits to the Bulls in all this.

I have to say though that Lawn's lack of knowledge about the Odsal sports village (as highlighted by comments from Peter Hood) speaks volumes. I also find a certain irony in Lawn being against the council funding sports facilities whilst simultaneously complaining about the fact he can't find anywhere to train in Bradford. As a mate of mine would say, "it does my 'ead in".