Re: Steve Parkin : Tue Apr 03, 2012 9:38 am  

No, there is not.

But the directors will, I suspect, have to make the decision by the end of this week as to whether the club can continuie as a going concern, and is solvent. If having taken suitable advice, they conclude the club is insolvent, they have to take steps immediately. Not next week, not next month, but immediately. That is the law. Otherwise, they risk becoming personally liable for the company's debts, because of "trading whilst insolvent".

I would not be surprised if the directors applied for administration next week, if they cannot satisfy themsleves that there is cash there to contuinue trading. And, as soon as an administrator is appointed, its up to him what happens next. Whether any of this would happen before the Hudds game, I'm not sure given its the Easter week, but I WOULD expect events to move quickly if the campaign is not a success.

That is all my supposition, btw - in case anyone thinks I might be party to any inside info. I am most definitely not.

Re: Steve Parkin : Tue Apr 03, 2012 9:49 am  

This might sound like a dumb question, but of what possible benefit is it to the HRMC to get clubs sent into administration? They will not get their money either then will they?

Re: Steve Parkin : Tue Apr 03, 2012 9:50 am  

debaser wrote:

This might sound like a dumb question, but of what possible benefit is it to the HRMC to get clubs sent into administration? They will not get their money either then will they?

No, but then the club won't owe them any more than they already do. 'Cutting their losses' I guess.

Re: Steve Parkin : Tue Apr 03, 2012 9:54 am  

M@islebugs wrote:

...but there's no winding up order.

Obviously, as if there was, we wouldn't be having this conversation. Before you get a winding up order you have to have a petition, it has to be advertised, and there has to be a meeting of creditors. In most cases the day the petition is advertised is armageddon, as then bank accounts are frozen and you can't then effectively trade anymore.

I have no clue if anyone has issued a winding up petition against us, or whether anyone has served us with a statutory demand. I don't think there's a petition, wouldn't be surprised if a stat. demand, but that's based on nothing except what I've read in the press, and nobody denying it, or explaining the relevance of the tight timescales, which suggest strongly there is some sort of deadline date or other.

The Revenue don't put clubs into administration. The club or its mooted new owners do that. HMRC would usually need to be outvoted for the creditors to agree to the administration.

Having said that, HMRC seem to take the view that it is preferable to cut their losses, although only very recently (within the last 2 years or so) they actually got round to setting up some sort of mini-department to try to "help" struggling businesses. Adey may know whether they actually ever do.

Re: Steve Parkin : Tue Apr 03, 2012 9:56 am  

Ferocious Aardvark wrote:

Having said that, HMRC seem to take the view that it is preferable to cut their losses, although only very recently (within the last 2 years or so) they actually got round to setting up some sort of mini-department to try to "help" struggling businesses. Adey may know whether they actually ever do.

Yes. They do.

But not sports clubs. Had their fingers burnt far far too many times.

Re: Steve Parkin : Tue Apr 03, 2012 10:02 am  

debaser wrote:

This might sound like a dumb question, but of what possible benefit is it to the HRMC to get clubs sent into administration? They will not get their money either then will they?

Petitioning for winding up = liquidation, not administration. Oblivion.

In the old days, pre-Enterpirse Act 2002, when theyn had Crown Preference, they ranked as a preferential creditor and so were far far more relaxed about allowing trading receivershiops and administrations. They got paid before the bank's debenture, let alone joe creditor.

The Enterprise Act helped the prospects of insolvent businesses by effectively killing off over time the ability of a debenture holder to appoint a receiver. But, law of unexpected consequences, removal of Crown Preference means HMRC are an unsecured creditor now, same as joe ordinary creditor. So they often feel they stand to lose more in the event of an administration (since available funds are targetted more towards saving the business as a viable entity) than in a liquidation (when more funds may make their way to the unsecureds).

Don't understimate the power of HMRC to destroy a sports club. Once they petition, things happen pretty quickly.

Re: Steve Parkin : Tue Apr 03, 2012 10:37 am  

Adeybull wrote:

Yes. They do.

But not sports clubs. Had their fingers burnt far far too many times.

I actually don't disagree with them. It's got to the stage where fans of various clubs just see the "administration" as a couple of days blip before business carries on as normal. Fans really aren't interested who got screwed.

But I'm assuming HMRC only can't stop these sort of sports pre-packs where they don't have a voting majority?

Re: Steve Parkin : Tue Apr 03, 2012 10:55 am  

Ferocious Aardvark wrote:

I actually don't disagree with them. It's got to the stage where fans of various clubs just see the "administration" as a couple of days blip before business carries on as normal. Fans really aren't interested who got screwed.

But I'm assuming HMRC only can't stop these sort of sports pre-packs where they don't have a voting majority?

Usually, yes, since (as I understand it - you legal types will know) the High Court will be reluctant to grant a winding up order, or will issue a stay, if the club defends by saying it is shortly to petition it for an Administration Order.

And, once an Administration Order is granted, then any winding up petitions cannot proceed anyway.

If HMRC has a voting majority at the ensuing Creditors' Meeting, it could seek to have the company wound up. But, by the time the meeting is held, the prepack is all done and dusted so the assets have long gone out of reach.

Re: Steve Parkin : Tue Apr 03, 2012 10:58 am  

Adeybull wrote:

No, there is not.

But the directors will, I suspect, have to make the decision by the end of this week as to whether the club can continuie as a going concern, and is solvent. If having taken suitable advice, they conclude the club is insolvent, they have to take steps immediately. Not next week, not next month, but immediately. That is the law. Otherwise, they risk becoming personally liable for the company's debts, because of "trading whilst insolvent".

I would not be surprised if the directors applied for administration next week, if they cannot satisfy themsleves that there is cash there to contuinue trading. And, as soon as an administrator is appointed, its up to him what happens next. Whether any of this would happen before the Hudds game, I'm not sure given its the Easter week, but I WOULD expect events to move quickly if the campaign is not a success.

That is all my supposition, btw - in case anyone thinks I might be party to any inside info. I am most definitely not.

I can't see anything happening before the Huddersfield game due to the bank holidays but you would expect things to have moved on before Doncaster are due at Odsal. I imagine the date set had a couple of days leeway with the easter weekend in mind.

If the pledge total was at 350-400K by saturday morning do you think the club will still ask for the money or is it really 500K or nothing?

Re: Steve Parkin : Tue Apr 03, 2012 11:01 am  

No idea. Not seen their forecasts, and do not know how much leeway they might have since there will be loads of other variables - not least how much they take on Friday and before.

I'd be reluctant to bet the club on there being that much leeway, tbh.