Re: Winding up petition : Fri Jul 29, 2016 10:18 am  

David Tasker wrote:

...So HMRC use the bulls VAT is based on money that the company has received so they have had that money but used it for purposes other than payment of taxes to HMRC? if correct then someone at Odsal needs to be held accountable for this mess.

It's not that simple. Leaving aside the fact that few companies pay all collected VAT into a separate account to pay over quarterly, even if they did, what if after the event HMRC decree that something was VATable - but you didn't charge VAT?

All you can do is pay, or appeal. And usually you are demanded to pay up anyway, regardless of appeal, on the basis only if your appeal succeeds would you get a refund.

For example, if the value of your service was £100,000. You didn't charge VAT. You think you have £100,000. HMRC decides it was VATable, so you are deemed to have charged £83,333 + VAT, and to owe the VAT man £16,667.

That's OK if you have a spare £16,667 kicking around to pay pending appeal, but a problem if you haven't.

I have no clue what it is, but on the face of it, we must have a case for disputing the assessment, as I can't imagine either missing a basic VAT requirement, nor going to the expense of an appeal if there were not at least strongly arguable reasons. Unless and until we know more, you can't say whether anyone needs to be "held accountable". I don't know who does the Bulls' day to day and VAT/tax accounts.

Re: Winding up petition : Fri Jul 29, 2016 10:31 am  

I'm making an assumption here, but if the accounts records were up to date, factual and recorded in a professional manner, then the HMRC wouldn't need to disagree, or demand more tax to be paid.

Each couple of months sees the Bulls subject to a Winding Up Order. Each one of these Orders would have gone through a "Debt Process" prior to the issue (or indeed threat) of a Winding Up Order.

The excuses are starting to run dry for me. Mr Green keeps beating this drum about how he intends to run the club like a business. Part of running a business is managing the accounts accordingly.

[Bulliac]

Re: Winding up petition : Fri Jul 29, 2016 11:17 am  

I thought you just took the taxman out for a bite to eat, you all had a good laugh and then forget about the 'debt' and went home friends? Or is that just when you owe £million upon £million?

Re: Winding up petition : Fri Jul 29, 2016 11:30 am  

daveyz999 wrote:

I'm making an assumption here, but if the accounts records were up to date, factual and recorded in a professional manner, then the HMRC wouldn't need to disagree, or demand more tax to be paid...

Sorry but that's patent bollox.

HMRC isn't fit for purpose, and hasn't been for years. They will gladly bankrupt some bloke with a tiny shop in a backstreet, or issue automatic fines and penalties for struggling businessmen a day late with their accounts, whilst doing illegal sweetheart deals with multinationals and allowing blatant tax fiddles to rip off the UK taxpayer, for example the use of offshore companies hiding behind LLPs. Through their lax attitude, London has become money laundering central, with whole swathes of the capital now bought through laundered funds and owned through secret offshore trusts. HMRC are a fscking disgrace.

HMRC C*O*U*L*D issue MEGA assessments to every one of those tax avoiding businesses and fscking well SHoULD but they don't. Of course, half the people in power benefit greatly from the blind eye turned to the major fiddles. I'm sure that's a pure coincidence.

Re: Winding up petition : Fri Jul 29, 2016 11:51 am  

Ferocious Aardvark wrote:

Sorry but that's patent bollox.

HMRC isn't fit for purpose, and hasn't been for years. They will gladly bankrupt some bloke with a tiny shop in a backstreet, or issue automatic fines and penalties for struggling businessmen a day late with their accounts, whilst doing illegal sweetheart deals with multinationals and allowing blatant tax fiddles to rip off the UK taxpayer, for example the use of offshore companies hiding behind LLPs. Through their lax attitude, London has become money laundering central, with whole swathes of the capital now bought through laundered funds and owned through secret offshore trusts. HMRC are a fscking disgrace.

HMRC C*O*U*L*D issue MEGA assessments to every one of those tax avoiding businesses and fscking well SHoULD but they don't. Of course, half the people in power benefit greatly from the blind eye turned to the major fiddles. I'm sure that's a pure coincidence.

That's all well and good. If you haven't paid VAT on something you should have then that is not HMRCs fault and I should imagine they work on the premise that ignorance is no defence.

Re: Winding up petition : Fri Jul 29, 2016 12:04 pm  

DemonUK wrote:

That's all well and good. If you haven't paid VAT on something you should have then that is not HMRCs fault and I should imagine they work on the premise that ignorance is no defence.

Correct.

Based on what very little we know (and what I know of VAT) I suspect the most likely scenario is that we disagree about whether or not something we have sold/done is liable for VAT. We (the Club) have probably said it's not and HMRC have probably said it is, and raised the assessment. In the end we could be right like Greggs were (I won't bore you with the details) and the assessment could be dropped.

Or we could slip into doom and damnation. Potato Potarto.

Ferocious Aardvark wrote:

I'll get me coat ... again

I hope you're buying all these coats from the Club shop!

Re: Winding up petition : Fri Jul 29, 2016 12:08 pm  

Ferocious Aardvark wrote:

It's not that simple. Leaving aside the fact that few companies pay all collected VAT into a separate account to pay over quarterly, even if they did, what if after the event HMRC decree that something was VATable - but you didn't charge VAT?

All you can do is pay, or appeal. And usually you are demanded to pay up anyway, regardless of appeal, on the basis only if your appeal succeeds would you get a refund.

For example, if the value of your service was £100,000. You didn't charge VAT. You think you have £100,000. HMRC decides it was VATable, so you are deemed to have charged £83,333 + VAT, and to owe the VAT man £16,667.

That's OK if you have a spare £16,667 kicking around to pay pending appeal, but a problem if you haven't.

I have no clue what it is, but on the face of it, we must have a case for disputing the assessment, as I can't imagine either missing a basic VAT requirement, nor going to the expense of an appeal if there were not at least strongly arguable reasons. Unless and until we know more, you can't say whether anyone needs to be "held accountable". I don't know who does the Bulls' day to day and VAT/tax accounts.

will this get resolved before the winding up order date of 5th September? I wonder if we do go into administration if Bullbuilder or one of the other supporters group would step in and look at taking on the club? Similar to what happened at Rochdale Hornets a few years ago where I donated £20 to become a shareholder but without voting powers.

Re: Winding up petition : Fri Jul 29, 2016 12:10 pm  

SombreroBu11 wrote:

Correct.

Based on what very little we know (and what I know of VAT) I suspect the most likely scenario is that we disagree about whether or not something we have sold/done is liable for VAT. We (the Club) have probably said it's not and HMRC have probably said it is, and raised the assessment. In the end we could be right like Greggs were (I won't bore you with the details) and the assessment could be dropped.

Or we could slip into doom and damnation. Potato Potarto.

I hope you're buying all these coats from the Club shop!

I hope you are right.

Re: Winding up petition : Fri Jul 29, 2016 12:10 pm  

David Tasker wrote:

will this get resolved before the winding up order date of 5th September? I wonder if we do go into administration if Bullbuilder or one of the other supporters group would step in and look at taking on the club? Similar to what happened at Rochdale Hornets a few years ago where I donated £20 to become a shareholder but without voting powers.

Believe bullbuilder have already said unnofficailly they arent in a position to even consider this.

Re: Winding up petition : Fri Jul 29, 2016 12:12 pm  

mat wrote:

Believe bullbuilder have already said unnofficailly they arent in a position to even consider this.

who is the official spokesman? have they made a statement about the latest winding up petition? I think if the worse happens and green comes out with the begging bowl e as supporters should really look at a buyout.