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WWW.RLFANS.COM • View topic - Ownership and twists
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Re: Ownership and twists : Wed Feb 19, 2014 7:28 pm  
M@islebugs wrote:
Reading Bullette is on the T and A smearing Richard Lamb. Considering everyone knows who RB speaks for this is incredibly depressing.


Who?
dboy 
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Re: Ownership and twists : Wed Feb 19, 2014 7:40 pm  
Slugger McBatt wrote:
There is another way of looking at it too.

Let's say it costs 1.2m to clear all liabilities and get a 2 point deduction, or even nil. What if the new owner gets the club at a rate of paying creditors 50p in the pound? If the owner is still willing to pay 1.2m, there is arguably 600K to invest in players, albeit with a more likely 4 point reduction.

I presume that's part of the balancing exercise. Your problem is, I guess, timing. If that simplistic formula had been applied in October, say, you could have recruited well.


15p in the pound is considered closer to the mark in such cases.
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Re: Ownership and twists : Wed Feb 19, 2014 7:41 pm  
M@islebugs wrote:
Reading Bullette is on the T and A smearing Richard Lamb. Considering everyone knows who RB speaks for this is incredibly depressing.


Everyone?

For the benefit of those of us not 'in the know' please elucidate....
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Re: Ownership and twists : Wed Feb 19, 2014 8:00 pm  
Slugger McBatt wrote:
There is another way of looking at it too.

Let's say it costs 1.2m to clear all liabilities and get a 2 point deduction, or even nil. What if the new owner gets the club at a rate of paying creditors 50p in the pound? If the owner is still willing to pay 1.2m, there is arguably 600K to invest in players, albeit with a more likely 4 point reduction.

I presume that's part of the balancing exercise. Your problem is, I guess, timing. If that simplistic formula had been applied in October, say, you could have recruited well.


I wish folk would appreciate that this debacle is NOT a straightforward "company gone bust" situation. It was not bust at the end of September, and would not have been bust had OK not abruptly stepped down for (genuine) health reasons at short order. He was continuing to feed cash in monthly. It has gone bust because he stopped fdeeding cash in once he (believed he) no longer owned the business, and because new prospective owners would and could not do a lot until THEY owned it. Impasse.

I suspect there WOULD have been a day of reckoning in the not too distant future, but it would not have been now.

This situation has arisen because of the deadlock in transferring the shares. That was stated pretty clearly the day the administrator was appointed. And because bloody Whitcu*t tried to sell the club to a moneylender and gave that moneylender a debenture, seemingly without anyone knowing what he was doing.

Administration has broken the deadlock. Indeed, that is one of the other, albeit far less common, purposes of administration.

The proof of all thius will be in the extent to which the next owners settle with the creditors. Almost always in an insolvent situation, the settlement is zero. Glover at Wakey settled a small proportion of their creditors (and not the £3/4m debt to HMRC...). That was a "normal" administration. Salford by contrast settled with all their creditors, using a CVA. But there was no owenership deadlock to break there.

If the Bulls' new owner/s settle with all the third party creditors, then this will be TOTALLY DIFFERENT to ANY OTHER ADMINISTRATION WE HAVE EVER SEEN IN RL. It will be more akin to what happened at Salford, where as we all know there were no penalties. And there will be NO JUSTIFICATION for any penalties here.

If the Bulls new owner/s settle at best only part of the third party creditors, then it will be more akin to what happened at Wakey. Although I reckon Glover may have repaid at best 20% of their creditors, and probably considerably less.

The proof of all this wil be in their actions. But please, people, recognise that this is actually a very different situation to what happened at Wakey, or indeed what happened here before.

Incidentally, very few companies actually exit administration. In almost all cases, the assets are transferred to a new company, the liabilities remain in the old to be settled to the extent possible, and the company is then liquidated.
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Re: Ownership and twists : Wed Feb 19, 2014 8:49 pm  
dboy wrote:
Where has this notion of punishing owners come from?

Bradford Bulls broke the rules by going into admin and it's Bradford Bulls who should take the sanction.

Whose name is over the door is irrelevant.


Aye.

You just bought a second hand car.

Its previous owner ran up a shedload of parking fines and speeding tickets which he did not pay. And, when the HP company finally repossessed it, he owed loads to the garage for servicing too, as well as a petrol account at the gas station.

You go to buy the car, and get told you have to settle all these debts run up by the previous owner, or you can't run the car on public roads.

Would you buy that car?

But at least the rules mean that darned car will get the punishment it deserves. Just a shame that, not being a human but an artifical construct, it will never actually know anything about it. Unlike its prospective new owner and driver, who cannot understand for the life of him why he is being punished for what the previous muppet driver did.

So he walks away, the car never gets sold, the HP company does not get a penny asnd neither does anyone else, when it gets sent tpo the scrapyard.

But, at least everyone can have the satisfaction of seeing the car get the punishment it so throughly deserves.
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Re: Ownership and twists : Wed Feb 19, 2014 8:52 pm  
Haha Adeybull has finally flipped
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Re: Ownership and twists : Wed Feb 19, 2014 8:56 pm  
Adeybull wrote:
Aye.

You just bought a second hand car.

Its previous owner ran up a shedload of parking fines and speeding tickets which he did not pay. And, when the HP company finally repossessed it, he owed loads to the garage for servicing too, as well as a petrol account at the gas station.

You go to buy the car, and get told you have to settle all these debts run up by the previous owner, or you can't run the car on public roads.

Would you buy that car?

But at least the rules mean that darned car will get the punishment it deserves. Just a shame that, not being a human but an artifical construct, it will never actually know anything about it. Unlike its prospective new owner and driver, who cannot understand for the life of him why he is being punished for what the previous muppet driver did.

So he walks away, the car never gets sold, the HP company does not get a penny asnd neither does anyone else, when it gets sent tpo the scrapyard.

But, at least everyone can have the satisfaction of seeing the car get the punishment it so throughly deserves.


What are you on about?

Bulls is a business with employees and creditors, suppliers and customers.

Is the analogy about an old banger, good for nothing but the scrap yard?
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Re: Ownership and twists : Wed Feb 19, 2014 9:07 pm  
Where did dboy say he wanted to buy a car?
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Re: Ownership and twists : Wed Feb 19, 2014 9:11 pm  
Looking at it very simplistically, this is why I presume the sanctions apply.

Let's say there are 1.2m of debts and liabilities owed to creditors, including OK. Let's say the new owner is willing to put 1.2m into the club. The options are probably:

Pay 20p in the pound to creditors and be left with a £960K fighting fund to buy players and invest generally - 6 points
Pay 50p in the pound and be left with 600K fighting fund - 4 pts
Pay 50p in the pound but make full ex gratia payments to small business creditors and HMRC and have around 300K fighting fund - 2 points
Pay everyone fully - nil points

I know the reality will be somewhat different but that is how I see it simplistically. The buyer has to decide strategically which to play it, with less sanction for more repayment.

Or he could get the whole business for the 20p in the pound, for example, and in which case the new owner has benefited by buying it from administration, and thus has a greater advantage over competing clubs who have to pay creditors in full and budgeted accordingly.

I presume that is something like the rationale.
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Re: Ownership and twists : Wed Feb 19, 2014 9:29 pm  
staffbull1973 wrote:
Where did dboy say he wanted to buy a car?


Certainly won't be buying one from Adeybull.

Not risking the parking fines and speeding tickets!
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