Re: Wigan "owner" irritated : Mon Jul 26, 2010 6:19 pm  

i think people are confusing Wigans youth development and overseas players. Those these are obviously linked, they arent the same. Wigan do have good youth development, nobody can sensibly deny that. They are up there with Leeds, Saints and maybe Hull as being the leaders in that respect.

But they are still going into next season with 8 overseas players, 3 of them new ones. Its an unacceptably high amount for Wigan, and its unacceptable for leeds to have 7.

Its the same at Leeds, whilst i would encourage us to bring in players the quality of Webb, Lauitiiti, Buderus and Eastwood, we should be forced to develop the Donalds, Lueluais, and Delanys ourselves.

Wigan are in a similar position. they should be forced to bring through decent english players instead of bringing in decent australian players. Who knows how much Ainscough would have improved the deficencies in his game had wigan been forced to persist with him, giving him SL game time over the past 2 years rather than just lumping for a Roberts or a Phelps.

Re: Wigan "owner" irritated : Mon Jul 26, 2010 6:33 pm  

FearTheVee wrote:

There are 9 non-England eligible players in your list, so you'll have 8 next year if you drop by one. That is FAR too many for a club like Wigan.

For a club like Wigan? If we are signing players within the rules (which we are), and have a squad that fits both the salary cap and quota restrictions (which we do) then it CANNOT be "too many". Can it? In your opinion as a fan of a rival team it may not appeal to you, but it cannot actually be too many.

It seems people are making out that Wigan are breaking a secret code of conduct or "spirit of the game" by replacing current players with better players, shouldn't every club aspire to bring the best possible talent to their club in order to succeed? Of course ideally these players would be English, but if English players of sufficient calibre are not available, why should a team suffer? Wigan ARE producing quality young players, this can be seen in the likes of Farrell, Tuson, Sam and Joel tomkins, Charnley. But of course some aren't going to meet the standards required and so will leave the club. Others will be offered more money from other clubs. These players playing in super league, albeit at different clubs, still benefits the English game though doesn't it?

Ok so Thornley is a different case as he has left the sport. But as the point has been made already, no rugby league club signed him. He never even played first team rugby for Wigan. How many of you saying how great a loss he is actually saw him play and know how good he is? I'm a wigan fan who lives outside of wigan, I don't get to watch the under 20's etc and i've never seen him play. So i'm sure many of those lambasting Wigan for releasing such a quality young player are just jumping on the bandwagon, having never seen him play.

The problem I see is that with the quota being reduced the price of English players is surely being raised, as clubs need to sign more quality English players. Could the issue be that some overseas players are actually better value than equivalent English players? In my opinion the best way to approach the issue is not to attack the clubs signing overseas players, but look at why they are doing it. As has been said before, if home-grown players, or even english players, didn't count fully on the cap then maybe you'd see players like Thornely being offered more money (admittedly probably more than their worth) to stay?

Re: Wigan "owner" irritated : Mon Jul 26, 2010 6:47 pm  

Dave26 wrote:

The problem I see is that with the quota being reduced the price of English players is surely being raised, as clubs need to sign more quality English players. Could the issue be that some overseas players are actually better value than equivalent English players? In my opinion the best way to approach the issue is not to attack the clubs signing overseas players, but look at why they are doing it. As has been said before, if home-grown players, or even english players, didn't count fully on the cap then maybe you'd see players like Thornely being offered more money (admittedly probably more than their worth) to stay?

they are doing it because it is easier, and a overseas players do provide better value.

They provide better value because we simply dont have that many english players coming through, so a 2nd/3rd tier aussie stuggling to make any money out in Aus like Charlie Leeano can come over here and get a decent full time wage. Sadly Leeano as probably a 4th tier australian as as good as most british players. So yes, they get better value and it is easier, why wouldnt they.

Thornley is a red herring, we should be producing 30 of him a year. But we arent. Why would a club spend all that money on developing him, spend all that money on his coaches, offer him a good contract if they can go out and get a ready made George Carmont? they wont, they are looking to seek a competitive advantage and there is a ton of them ready and waiting down under.

We need to make it in the clubs benefit to bring in huge numbers of youngters.

Thats not absolve the clubs though, they have been selfish and short-termist and failed in their duty to the sport

Re: Wigan "owner" irritated : Mon Jul 26, 2010 7:07 pm  

SmokeyTA wrote:

Thornley is a red herring, we should be producing 30 of him a year. But we arent. Why would a club spend all that money on developing him, spend all that money on his coaches, offer him a good contract if they can go out and get a ready made George Carmont? they wont, they are looking to seek a competitive advantage and there is a ton of them ready and waiting down under.

The bit in bold is the key. Wigan did this with Thornley, and yet he still left. Do you (this not aimed at you Smokey but everyone) not think that given the choice, and having spent so much money, Wigan would have wanted to keep him? Do people really think that a club spends all that money to bring players through, with the intention of just letting them go, and not trying to sign them? At the same time, a difference in salary cap I would imagine prevents any rugby league club from competing with a union club for a young english player. This could become a very serious issue in the next few years.

SmokeyTA wrote:

We need to make it in the clubs benefit to bring in huge numbers of youngters.

With the salary cap as it is, how would this be done? To cut all/almost all overseas players would sadly see a decline in quality in the league. But maybe this short-term decline is the only way in the long run? I'd like to see the best players in super league, no matter where they are from, without them it becomes somewhat less "super". I don't think cutting out overseas players is the solution, not completely. So it HAS to be a change in the cap in relation to english/british players.

SmokeyTA wrote:

Thats not absolve the clubs though, they have been selfish and short-termist and failed in their duty to the sport

Definitely, as a Wigan fan i've only got to look at the last ten years (i'm only 20 now) to see the damage that this can cause. Which makes the current criticism all the more difficult to swalllow, because everyone can surely see how far the Wigan club has come in the last couple of years since Lenegan took over?

Re: Wigan "owner" irritated : Mon Jul 26, 2010 7:28 pm  

I don't have any problem with Thornley leaving. Young players have choices to make and sometimes they don't make the one you would like them too. Wigan can't go around throwing big bucks at every young player who has yet to make his debut but is touted as the next big thing.

My issue is more general. A couple of months back there was a thread on the Wigan board where Wigan fans were posting what they thought was their best, fully fit XVII. The majority of those teams did not include any of Feka/Bailey/Phelps.

So yes, 3 are coming in and 4 are leaving. In theory, the position is better for Wigan youngsters but in reality it isn't, because in 2010 there will be 2 MORE overseas players in the first choice Wigan XVII than in 2010, despite the quota being reduced.

That is my concern. The signings are being passed off by Wigan fans as "three in four out" but it isn't as simple as that. There is no need at all for Wigan to have 8 England ineligible players next season. Saints, in comparison, are likely to have just 4 England ineligible players next season. An extra 4 English players across all SL clubs playing week-in, week-out could have a massive difference to the development of young players in this country, but unfortunately self interest reigns supreme.

Re: Wigan "owner" irritated : Mon Jul 26, 2010 7:40 pm  

FearTheVee wrote:

There is no need at all for Wigan to have 8 England ineligible players next season.

8?

7 seems more likely, even less if we can pick Manu for England....

Hoffman
Lima
Finch
Leuluai
Roberts
Richards (qualifies on residency)
Hansen (qualifies on residency)

Re: Wigan "owner" irritated : Mon Jul 26, 2010 7:43 pm  

shambawangy wrote:

8?

7 seems more likely, even less if we can pick Manu for England....

Hoffman
Lima
Finch
Leuluai
Roberts
Richards (qualifies on residency)
Hansen (qualifies on residency)

Carmont?

I thought it was Riddell/Feka/Phelps/Bailey leaving?

Re: Wigan "owner" irritated : Mon Jul 26, 2010 7:53 pm  

FearTheVee wrote:

Carmont?

I thought it was Riddell/Feka/Phelps/Bailey leaving?

Carmont will be here next season but there are pretty strong rumours that Roberts may not

Re: Wigan "owner" irritated : Mon Jul 26, 2010 7:58 pm  

I know its fun to point the finger at wigan with regards the overseas appointments, but to be honest, what other option is there? Why should they sign some random english player who is pants, just so they can take the moral highground about having so many english players?

Re: Wigan "owner" irritated : Mon Jul 26, 2010 8:21 pm  

Saint_Marc wrote:

I know its fun to point the finger at wigan with regards the overseas appointments, but to be honest, what other option is there? Why should they sign some random english player who is pants, just so they can take the moral highground about having so many english players?

The ideal situation that every fan wants for their team is a completely home-grown squad of players that can be competitive, but that is pretty unrealistic, even for heartland clubs, in this day and age. An adjustment to the salary cap which rewards teams for developing players would probably help, such as letting home-developed players count for less on the cap, but it would probably be seen as unfair on teams with less money or are in expansion areas