Re: Lance Hohaia retires : Sat May 02, 2015 7:17 am  

knockersbumpMKII wrote:

No, because an airy fairy shove with the forearm in the situation of retaliation for being pushed over previously (one individual low level shove from each) would get both of them a serious dressing down but not arrest.

The violent punch/es that followed would be ABH (possibly considered GBH in so far as the law states) and due to the second punch on an unconscious person unable to defend themselves could see a custodial sentence though first time offenders often see a fine.
Even taking into account it's a physical contact sport and fights happen regularly, the second punch though not the most damaging is the bit that would have re-inforced the ABH at the very least and might have pursauded a judge to make an example with a custodial sentence due to the extreme nature.
IF the police/CPS had got involved (they're pretty fecking useless in any case) it would be unlikely they'd go for the GBH charge because of them less likely to get a conviction.
All supposition because nothing was done, that said IF the police had decided to take matters further do you think RL players would be less likely to start throwing haymakers or not?

So in your eyes LH did nothing? I'm pretty sure that he committed an assault and from there retaliation falls towards self defense. To put it simply, elbow me in the head and I won't get a slap on the wrist from the law for retaliation.

That said, talk of the police is nonsense. Its pretty clear that you and your mate can walk into someones home, attack them, be caught on camera and not only do the press barely care but neither do the club, governing body or fans.

I really struggle with the fact that Flower is lambasted for retaliation in a match. Hardacre and friend get very little for going into someone's home and assaulting them!!!

Re: Lance Hohaia retires : Sat May 02, 2015 7:34 am  

goobervision wrote:

I take it you haven't watched much rugby? I have seen far worse.

I haven't. The worst I've probably seen was the elbow on Hugh Waddell at Headingley v Widnes. They're in the same category.

Re: Lance Hohaia retires : Sat May 02, 2015 9:48 am  

goobervision wrote:

So in your eyes LH did nothing? I'm pretty sure that he committed an assault and from there retaliation falls towards self defense. To put it simply, elbow me in the head and I won't get a slap on the wrist from the law for retaliation.

That said, talk of the police is nonsense. Its pretty clear that you and your mate can walk into someones home, attack them, be caught on camera and not only do the press barely care but neither do the club, governing body or fans.

I really struggle with the fact that Flower is lambasted for retaliation in a match. Hardacre and friend get very little for going into someone's home and assaulting them!!!

Self defence also needs to be reasonable force. Punching a prone person could be construed as excessive force. The first punch is self defence the second..... Difficult.

Re: Lance Hohaia retires : Sat May 02, 2015 10:07 am  

goobervision wrote:

So in your eyes LH did nothing? I'm pretty sure that he committed an assault and from there retaliation falls towards self defense. To put it simply, elbow me in the head and I won't get a slap on the wrist from the law for retaliation.

That said, talk of the police is nonsense. Its pretty clear that you and your mate can walk into someones home, attack them, be caught on camera and not only do the press barely care but neither do the club, governing body or fans.

I really struggle with the fact that Flower is lambasted for retaliation in a match. Hardacre and friend get very little for going into someone's home and assaulting them!!!

I think you really need to go back to the match to see how the incident developed, Flower instigated the thing in the first place with a side shot to the head, what Lance did was retaliation. After Flowers retaliation he lost control and went over the "red line" Holding down an unconscious player at the throat then punching vertically down into the eye socket is NOT SPORT but now potentially pending as G.B.H. It,s as simple as that whichever way you want to dress it up, time will tell but Flower might have to come to terms that his action "may have" contributed to the termination of a players career and possible future brain damage, hopefully the latter does,t develop for every sport minded person on here, and wish Lance well for his future and family.

Re: Lance Hohaia retires : Sat May 02, 2015 10:12 am  

Judder Man wrote:

I think you really need to go back to the match to see how the incident developed, Flower instigated the thing in the first place with a side shot to the head, what Lance did was retaliation. After Flowers retaliation he lost control and went over the "red line" Holding down an unconscious player at the throat then punching vertically down into the eye socket is NOT SPORT but now potentially pending as G.B.H. It,s as simple as that whichever way you want to dress it up, time will tell but Flower might have to come to terms that his action "may have" contributed to the termination of a players career and possible future brain damage, hopefully the latter does,t develop for every sport minded person on here, and wish Lance well for his future and family.

And do the saints club have to take some of that responsibility by allowing him to continue to play?

Re: Lance Hohaia retires : Sat May 02, 2015 10:33 am  

Huge misconception that Hohaia started the incident in the Grand Final, he reacted to a swinging arm from behind by Flower. The first punch may just about be defended as self defence, but the second cannot. There's no doubt all players take head knocks in their career, but this was above a normal head knock. What we've got to ask is, but for Flower's actions, would Hohaia have retired? Almost certainly not!, this incident appears to be a direct contribution to his retirement. Flower gets roughly a 10 game ban, Hohaia can't carry on with his job. Hardly fair!

Speculating about concussion which I doubt many people on here know anything about is unwise. Only Hohaia, Saints and their doctors really know his physical and mental state, so we should stop second guessing this. Let's hope Hohaia is offered all the support needed in his recovery.

Re: Lance Hohaia retires : Sat May 02, 2015 11:18 am  

SRV wrote:

Huge misconception that Hohaia started the incident in the Grand Final, he reacted to a swinging arm from behind by Flower. The first punch may just about be defended as self defence, but the second cannot. There's no doubt all players take head knocks in their career, but this was above a normal head knock. What we've got to ask is, but for Flower's actions, would Hohaia have retired? Almost certainly not!, this incident appears to be a direct contribution to his retirement. Flower gets roughly a 10 game ban, Hohaia can't carry on with his job. Hardly fair!

Speculating about concussion which I doubt many people on here know anything about is unwise. Only Hohaia, Saints and their doctors really know his physical and mental state, so we should stop second guessing this. Let's hope Hohaia is offered all the support needed in his recovery.

Agree with this, especially the bolded which far too many people seem to be choosing to ignore in order to apportion blame to Hohaia.

Re: Lance Hohaia retires : Sat May 02, 2015 12:14 pm  

Judder Man wrote:

I think you really need to go back to the match to see how the incident developed, Flower instigated the thing in the first place with a side shot to the head, what Lance did was retaliation. After Flowers retaliation he lost control and went over the "red line" Holding down an unconscious player at the throat then punching vertically down into the eye socket is NOT SPORT but now potentially pending as G.B.H. It,s as simple as that whichever way you want to dress it up, time will tell but Flower might have to come to terms that his action "may have" contributed to the termination of a players career and possible future brain damage, hopefully the latter does,t develop for every sport minded person on here, and wish Lance well for his future and family.

I really don't, I'm not obsessing over it unlike some. Odd how, at the time there were plenty of Saint's fans saying that Flower pushed Lance to excuse the run and elbow and now it's a side shot to the head which clearly means it was OK to make the run and attack to the head.

As for this ending of "we all hope Lance is OK", I don't think anyone has any other thought but whenever I see it to close the position of the person saying it, it smacks of "think of the children" attitudes. I do hope that the St Helen's Star retract their "news" which had no basis for blaming Flower, a player who may suffer as a result of the constant hounding by Saint's fans...

Hardacre however... where's the mock outrage there? Is it because there's no opposing team, just a member of the public in their own home?

Re: Lance Hohaia retires : Sat May 02, 2015 3:07 pm  

SRV wrote:

Huge misconception that Hohaia started the incident in the Grand Final, he reacted to a swinging arm from behind by Flower. The first punch may just about be defended as self defence, but the second cannot. There's no doubt all players take head knocks in their career, but this was above a normal head knock. What we've got to ask is, but for Flower's actions, would Hohaia have retired? Almost certainly not!, this incident appears to be a direct contribution to his retirement. Flower gets roughly a 10 game ban, Hohaia can't carry on with his job. Hardly fair!

Speculating about concussion which I doubt many people on here know anything about is unwise. Only Hohaia, Saints and their doctors really know his physical and mental state, so we should stop second guessing this. Let's hope Hohaia is offered all the support needed in his recovery.

The irony is blowing my mind.

Re: Lance Hohaia retires : Sat May 02, 2015 3:16 pm  

Suzy Banyon wrote:

The irony is blowing my mind.

Just a bit haha.