: Fri Mar 06, 2009 6:56 pm  

Wellsy13 wrote:

Yes, a plan is a map. But, like a map, there are many different directions one can go. Once the club are in the Championship, they will have a better idea of where they are and which direction they can go forward. There isn't one way to go (which I'm pretty sure you know anyway), but to plan a route NOW when there are hundreds of different ways they could go once in the Championship due to hundreds of different factors would be pointless. They can have an aim, or goal, to get to SL, but they don't need a plan yet as in all likeliness the plan they produce now will be entirely different to the plan they produce then, rendering the original plan meaningless and pointless.

how can they know how far on their journey they are when dont know where they aare going?

and you cant make a plan for what you have previously done on the basis you have already done it,

any business plan will we have short, medium and long term, aims and objectives, which will be linked, a good long term plan will give you short and medium term objectives which lead you towards your long term aims being met.

What you seem to be proposing is a club plans for the short - medium term, and ignore the long term objectives because in all likelyhood the circumstances will have changed, which ignores the point that when they set their short term objectives they should be setting objectives which put them in a position to meet their medium and long term objectives

I believe this is the post that Barnacle Bill is referring to.

then he needs to read it properly

I agree, a club without a plan to get to SL will never get there (how can they produce a license application without one?).

they cant!

But why do they need one now? Why can't they produce a plan later?

because how can they plan for a short term that leaves them in a position to acheive what they want long term when they havent yet decided where they need to be long term?

I reckon Gateshead and Sheffield have aims for SL one day, but I doubt they had plans set out on how they were going to get there from day one.

i would hope if they expect to be in SL any time in the next 5-10 years they have a good idea where they will need to be to acheive that, including have looked at very basic things like where they will play

You have different plans for progress in different levels of competition. It's sort of like trying to argue that they should also be planning to win the SL as well, as that is surely the overall goal?

yeah, they should, it doesnt need to be a particularly full plan, but they should have a decent idea of how they are going to do it

Why can they not produce a plan when they realise they can sella lot of tickets, get good sponsors, put out a competitive team and generally go well?

because then they arent planning, there is no forethought in reacting the circumstances(which is obviously something they would also need to do)

They will have a much better idea of where they are and where they can go then, and the plan will actually be meaningful. Your logic appears to be that because they didn't plan for something which was years away, then they can't plan for it later, which is of course absurd.

try reading back what you are putting here, no they cant plan for things which have already happened, this is because they have already happened,

a club should be putting in place a plan where their short term aims put them in the best position to acheive their medium term aims which in turn put them in the best position to acheive their long term aims,

if a club doesnt know where it needs to be and what it needs to do and acheive in the medium and long term how can it make a short term plan which links to their medium and long term ones

: Fri Mar 06, 2009 7:00 pm  

Wellsy13 wrote:

Exactly. We don't know what route they're going to take. They don't know what route they're going to take. Unless you have multi-millions to back the club, your routes are not very direct. Celtic's plan was to power through the NLs using imports to keep a competitive team going whilst building their off-field assets. I very much doubt this new team will be able to do that, so their plans will revolve more around how they are going to be able to generate money to progress, rather than what they're going to do after they progress. They may never progress.

so you are saying the only club to do something similar did make a long term plan, to go from the NLs to SL even in their very formative years,

Basically my point is that planning for SL at the stage they're at has very little baring on whether you get there or not unless they're backed by a heavy invester. Very few would disagree with that, and there is not really anything out there that I can think of that can prove it wrong. I can't prove it right, but the fact that only Celtic have made SL from being newly introduced to NL2 sorta goes with my point.

so clubs with lots of money should plan for the future, clubs without it should just 'fly by the seat of their pants' and should forego long term plans for short-termism, well, erm, ok

Cetic sorta prove that as club which puts in place short-medium-and long term plans in place, and follow them can be a success, thats it really

Have you seen these plans? Or have you just heard that they have them?

they have made it publicly known they have made them

: Fri Mar 06, 2009 7:00 pm  

: Fri Mar 06, 2009 7:04 pm  

So these plans are basically

They start

They progress

They get into SL

They win the WCC

Ahh now I understand

: Fri Mar 06, 2009 7:06 pm  

Starbug wrote:

So these plans are basically

They start

They progress

They get into SL

They win the WCC

Ahh now I understand

yes, thats exactly it, well done

: Fri Mar 06, 2009 7:31 pm  

SmokeyTA wrote:

yes, thats exactly it, well done

I'd give them a franchise now , they've cracked it

I also understand where Leigh have been going wrong all these years

: Sat Mar 07, 2009 12:16 am  

Smokey, I can't really be *rsed to be dragged into another one of these quote-a-thons so I'll just pick up on the main points...

I don't know where you've gathered I have said they are planning for something they've already achieved. For someone who has been telling people to read posts properly, you should maybe take your own advice.

And the fact that you said they don't need to have a full plan basically renders your point useless. If it's not a full plan, then it's not a plan, it's just a thought.

You cannot plan for what you know too little about. Until they're up and running they have know idea how far away they are from SL.

And trying to claim that Celtic was long-term planning is laughable. 3 years is not long-term. They new that if they put a lot of money into a squad and got into NL1 before the license year and then were competitive that year, they'd be in with a good shout.

And where have London Skolars made it publicly known that they're aiming for SL in 2015? And is it a "full plan" they have?

: Sat Mar 07, 2009 9:33 am  

Irish Tyke wrote:

There are no other stadiums of a decent size in Dublin that could accommodate a magic weekend type format.
Croke Park is way to big and you would have the almost impossible task of getting the GAA to approve it.There is no way they would allow 6/7 Rugby League games to be played on their pitch over 2 days and it would also interfere with the hurling and Gaelic football games which are also played at the same time of year as Rugby League.
Dublin is a non starter for our game

What about landsdowne when it finally gets finished??

: Sat Mar 07, 2009 9:44 am  

gutterfax wrote:

As I said, without all the politics that mar the game in France and England, RL would do well in Ireland...look at Australia. It is seen as a working class game that is open to all, unlike Union that is seen in Ireland as elitist. The GAA was formed with one of its main aims to exile the traditional English games of cricket, soccer and rugby. It called these "foreign games" and it forbade its members to play or attend them - a ban that lasted up to the 1960s
I believe if marketed well and given the right level of support, RL will take off quicker than in Scotland (or London for that matter )

Regarding croke park, RU and concerts have been held there over the last few years, and given the state of the current economic climate in ireland at the moment i dont think the GAA or the irish government would turn down 50/60 thousand supporters/tourist for a magic weekend.

: Sat Mar 07, 2009 2:18 pm  

Wellsy13 wrote:

Smokey, I can't really be *rsed to be dragged into another one of these quote-a-thons so I'll just pick up on the main points...

I don't know where you've gathered I have said they are planning for something they've already achieved. For someone who has been telling people to read posts properly, you should maybe take your own advice.

you have said numerous times that they should just 'suck it and see', i.e go into the championship and just see what its like, and then make a plan, which is obviously silly as they cant make a plan for the time they have just spent in the championship, because it has already happened.

Which basically means they waste a few years pottering around in the championship, making no progress to their ultimate aims for reasons you have yet to say

And the fact that you said they don't need to have a full plan basically renders your point useless. If it's not a full plan, then it's not a plan, it's just a thought.

well thats just changing the meaning of words and such complete tosh

You cannot plan for what you know too little about. Until they're up and running they have know idea how far away they are from SL.

And trying to claim that Celtic was long-term planning is laughable. 3 years is not long-term. They new that if they put a lot of money into a squad and got into NL1 before the license year and then were competitive that year, they'd be in with a good shout.

do you really think Celtic just appeared one day? that Leighton Samuel pulled the club out of his ass and here they are now 4 years later in SL

you know thats rubbish, and i know that is rubbish, SL was the medium term aim, introducing welsh players to a competitive SL side is the long term aim, everything crusaders have done from the day they were registered in nl2 and for a bit before that two, has been focused on the medium term aim of getting SL, and being in a position to start focusing on the long term aim, introducing welsh players to a competitive SL side,

right now, because they made all of short medium and long term aims they are ahead of where they would have been, their youth sides are up and running and have been for 2 or 3 years now, so they are at the very least 2 or 3 years ahead of where they would be had they taken your advice, and spent a couple of years knocking round the lower leagues, just having a look see

"We wanted to recruit players who we know had been developed the right way and through systems we thought could add something to the development of our young players here in Wales.
"That meant recruiting Australian players that both John and I had worked with, played or coached with or against or know have come through the right development systems in the NRL.
"Their charter is to make us more competitive in the short to medium term. The longer term is about producing Welsh players capable of competing at Super League.
"Recruiting players like Lincoln Withers, Mark Bryant, Adam Peek, Marshall Chalk and Ryan O'Hara, and keeping guys like Jace Van Dijk, Tony Duggan and Damien Quinn, is instrumental in making the Crusaders competitive at Super League initially and for their experience and professionalism to rub off on the young Welsh players."
."

this is from Anthony Seibold, it is a good example of how you set short term aims, and making sure achieving those can put you in the best position to acheive your long term aims, i.e short-term aim = being competitive, long term aim = being competitive with welsh players, answer bring in some quality players who have been through the right coaching and can help young welsh players get better. you see how it works now? and nobody had to make detailed plans years or anything, they simply knew they short medium and long term objectives and how they could get from where they are to where they need to be,

simple

And where have London Skolars made it publicly known that they're aiming for SL in 2015? And is it a "full plan" they have?

the evening standard

Club chairman Hector McNeil said: London rugby league is crying out for a second top-flight team in the capital and everyone would be happy with a London derby with the Harlequins.
"We've had talks with the Olympics consultants and are going through to the next stage on a shortlist basis. It would have to be a whole new set-up at the club aiming for a 5,000 average crowd and we would aim to ramp up all our capabilities.?