Re: Wigan abuse new cap rules already? : Fri Nov 18, 2011 4:51 pm  

the wrestler wrote:

so people are saying to maintain homegrown english talent, you should be forced to cripple the rest of your squad

Why would you?

Look at the players leaving Wigan, now look at those coming in. Can you honestly say, hand on heart, that they are of equal quality and, by comparison, on equal wages?

If you can, then Wigan were right to go to the RFL for more cap space to keep ST, if not, then Wigan have purely done it as cynical move to gain an unfair financial advantage over the rest of SL knowing full well that the rest of SL won't have the chance to take full advantage of this new loophole before the season starts.

Re: Wigan abuse new cap rules already? : Fri Nov 18, 2011 4:57 pm  

Cherry.Pie wrote:

Maybe it's time someone pointed out that the signings Wigan have made were not AFTER the dispensation was given.

They signed months ago, they were only ANNOUNCED recently. The exceptions are the two young Welsh players Lloyd and Pugsley but as they aren't one of the top 25 earners they don't count on the cap anyway.

As it stands Gelling hasn't signed, so no signings that would impact the cap have been made after the announcement of any dispensation.

You seem to announce this as fact - is it - or are you just saying it on a messageboard and ergo it must be true?

Re: Wigan abuse new cap rules already? : Fri Nov 18, 2011 5:00 pm  

Badwanger wrote:

That is *exactly* what should have happened but I'd argue that it would allow even more Wigan youngsters to come to the fore rather than leave.

Firstly, I'm glad ST is staying in RL - thought I need to make that clear.

Secondly, given the amount of players leaving and the difference in the quality of those player coming in, I fail to see why Wigan needed this dispensation in the first place - surely even the most ardent of Wigan fan can see that?

I'm not saying that for one minute but that Wigan have been utterly cynical and fed the RFL a line and they have fallen for it, hook, line and sinker.

The fact Wigan are STILL being linked with yet another player - who let's face it, if true, won't be being paid peanuts - just further emphasis the fact that Wigan have played the RFL for fools on this one.

I'm not debating the merits/flaws of the ruling, I'm debating whether it was necessary at all given the comparison of Ins and Outs of the Wigan squad this coming year and the fact that Wigan are still in talks with other players who may, or not, have been approached by them before the ST ruling.

I'm not convinced it's as clear cut as you are trying to make out.

I'm not going to cut and snip as I'm no good at it but I think it is that simple.

It's obvious someones been sniffing, Wigan wouldn't go to ST and say lets rip up your contract and double your money!
At this point Wigan have a couple of options

Tell him to get stuffed which one way or another is going to suit no-one in RL (Unhappy player, affects Wigan and more importanly affect Eng/GB rugby and bet your life this didn't happen last week! This happened 3/4 months ago the exposure RL has had with the help of his performances has justified the RL thinking about this rule change over the last few months). All those that think they made this rule up last week at the drop of a hat to suit Wigan are living in cloud cuckoo land!

Give him the money he/his agent wants and not sign any replacements for the other players. I'm pretty sure Wigan wouldn't have done that as it's a recipe for disaster.

Speak to the RFL about the rules for Home grown players which benefits mostly all clubs who produce Youth players for England and helps all clubs keep Home grown players and also benefits clubs that produce & keep these players in British RL.

I'm having a slight guess here that they did the latter, and only once the details of the rule changes were sorted did they give ST a wage increase & announce the signing of the New players. If it hadn't been agreed option 1 or 2 would have happened.

SURELY NO-ONE CAN ARGUE THIS ISN'T A GOOD THING?

Re: Wigan abuse new cap rules already? : Fri Nov 18, 2011 5:06 pm  

Chorlton RL wrote:

Gelling sounds like a lovely chap.

And, are they really abusing the cap when all SL clubs have the same rules applied to them?

They've lost Gleeson, Hoffman, Deacon, Coley, Cross, Coley and O'Carroll from last season's squad. I reckon they might have a bit more space under their cap now.

The amendments to the cap are surely a good thing, it will benefit the British game, and don't Wigan have the right to use it to their full advantage?

Cross can't have taken up much cap space, one of the worst foreign signings Leeds made and that's saying something with the dross we have brought over in the past!!

Re: Wigan abuse new cap rules already? : Fri Nov 18, 2011 5:09 pm  

Jukesays wrote:

I'm not going to cut and snip as I'm no good at it but I think it is that simple.

It's obvious someones been sniffing, Wigan wouldn't go to ST and say lets rip up your contract and double your money!
At this point Wigan have a couple of options

Tell him to get stuffed which one way or another is going to suit no-one in RL (Unhappy player, affects Wigan and more importanly affect Eng/GB rugby and bet your life this didn't happen last week! This happened 3/4 months ago the exposure RL has had with the help of his performances has justified the RL thinking about this rule change over the last few months). All those that think they made this rule up last week at the drop of a hat to suit Wigan are living in cloud cuckoo land!

Give him the money he/his agent wants and not sign any replacements for the other players. I'm pretty sure Wigan wouldn't have done that as it's a recipe for disaster.

Speak to the RFL about the rules for Home grown players which benefits mostly all clubs who produce Youth players for England and helps all clubs keep Home grown players and also benefits clubs that produce & keep these players in British RL.

I'm having a slight guess here that they did the latter, and only once the details of the rule changes were sorted did they give ST a wage increase & announce the signing of the New players. If it hadn't been agreed option 1 or 2 would have happened.

SURELY NO-ONE CAN ARGUE THIS ISN'T A GOOD THING?

Ok, I'll keep this brief. It IS a GOOD THING that ST remains in the sport. It is also a GOOD THING that this rule exists BUT, and this is my gripe, when you look at the Ins/Outs on the Wigan playing roster, you wonder why they needed this ruling at all?

Also, Wigan continue to persue (sign/announce) players despite already having a squad of players for next year and a fantastic youth set-up waiting in the wings. It just smacks of being totally unfair on the rest of SL. Even you must see that?

Re: Wigan abuse new cap rules already? : Fri Nov 18, 2011 5:34 pm  

Badwanger wrote:

It just smacks of being totally unfair on the rest of SL. Even you must see that?

How? I'd argue the only clubs not in a position to benefit from the new rules are those which can only blame themselves.

Likely clubs to make us of it:

- Saints
- Leeds
- Hull FC
- Catalans
- Huddersfield
- Warrington
- Wigan

Off the top of my head they are the clubs that will definately be spending to the cap, and also have England players in the team. Bradford, Hull KR can't be far off spending to the cap, and Widnes next year won't be far off although they don't have England players as of yet.

Is that not the majority of the league that will then benefit from this ruling?

Re: Wigan abuse new cap rules already? : Fri Nov 18, 2011 5:36 pm  

Badwanger wrote:

Ok, I'll keep this brief. It IS a GOOD THING that ST remains in the sport. It is also a GOOD THING that this rule exists BUT, and this is my gripe, when you look at the Ins/Outs on the Wigan playing roster, you wonder why they needed this ruling at all?

Also, Wigan continue to persue (sign/announce) players despite already having a squad of players for next year and a fantastic youth set-up waiting in the wings. It just smacks of being totally unfair on the rest of SL. Even you must see that?

No

Because if the rule hadn't come in they would have had to cut their clothe i.e NOT GIVE ST THE MONEY TO KEEP HIM IN THE GAME or GIVE HIM THE MONEY AND THEN RUN A REDUCED SQUAD ROSTER.

Until they knew the rule changed they did neither, what's the problem?

Would you rather they did it the other way and then bleated about the arrogance or stupidity of that move?

Do you think for 1 minute the RL changed this rule last week without consulting any of the other SL Clubs or do you think they have been discussing this for months?

If it's the former then you may as well join the Conspiracy Theory club - if it's the latter then all Wigan have done is taken advantage of a new rule that has been brought in for ALL CLUBS and ALL CLUBS will have known about this potential rule change at the same time.

I know for a fact that this rule may help another SL club keep 1 of their Top stars at their club as the increased wages for the youngsters at that club ( WHo quite rightly are investing a lot of money in juniors to get their system up to speed) meant they needed to offload a Big earner. The big earner was being touted by several SL clubs and now he won't need to leave due to the New rule.

As for Wigan, I would guess that maybe 50% of the wages freed up by Coley/Deacon/Hoffman etc will be taken up by ST's wage increase and the wages of Flower/Dudson. The other will go to the incremental step up in wages for the youngsters coming through such as Crosby/Hughes/Tomkins/King/Mellor etc etc I could go on a lot more.

The 100k that has come in Plus the money freed from the released players will be used to allow the youngsters wages to increase and allow Wigan to keep ST.

How do you know for instance that other clubs haven't had youngsters waiting on this extra 100k ruling before being given new/improved contracts and if it hadn't come in they would have had unhappy youngsters or players leaving?

I know of 1 youngster at Warrington personally who after the ruling last week was fast tracked ontp the higher Youth players wages. He wouldn't have left if it hadn't happened but it certainly pleased him and helps him to concentrate on is future at Warrington rather than look elsewhere.

Re: Wigan abuse new cap rules already? : Fri Nov 18, 2011 7:56 pm  

I think the point that is trying to be made is that it is only wigan that will directly benefit from the ruling THIS season.

It's too late in the day for any of the above mentioned teams to alter their transfer policy accordingly, as most have signed players already... wigan on the other hand appear to have held off signing anyone until this ruling has been passed.

Over the next few season im sure that there are quite a few teams that will benefit....at the moment though it would appear to be heavily weighted in wigans favour for the coming season.

Re: Wigan abuse new cap rules already? : Fri Nov 18, 2011 8:02 pm  

morleys_deckchair wrote:

Over the next few season im sure that there are quite a few teams that will benefit....at the moment though it would appear to be heavily weighted in wigans favour for the coming season.

Well technically the way Wigan have benefited from it is by giving Sam Tomkins the payrise, and (rumoured) to be giving one to Josh Charnley as well. What's stopping Wire/Saints giving new contracts to Roby/Lomax/Atkins?

I think the misconception is that people think that (were the exception not to happen) we wouldn't be signing Dudson, Flower or whoever else. The reality is that they were already signed (just not announced), so the benefit Wigan have got is that Tomkins now has a (hopefully) airtight new deal for 3 years, with Charnley soon behind. Nothing to stop other teams benefitting from that THIS year.

Re: Wigan abuse new cap rules already? : Fri Nov 18, 2011 8:59 pm  

inside_man wrote:

Well technically the way Wigan have benefited from it is by giving Sam Tomkins the payrise, and (rumoured) to be giving one to Josh Charnley as well. What's stopping Wire/Saints giving new contracts to Roby/Lomax/Atkins?

I think the misconception is that people think that (were the exception not to happen) we wouldn't be signing Dudson, Flower or whoever else. The reality is that they were already signed (just not announced), so the benefit Wigan have got is that Tomkins now has a (hopefully) airtight new deal for 3 years, with Charnley soon behind. Nothing to stop other teams benefitting from that THIS year.

Dont get me wrong.... i think its a great idea.... im all for it...... my club is going to benefit hugely from the new rule over the next 3/4 seasons.... But surely you can see what people are saying.....

its the way its been done. Surely you wigan fans can see that this contract signing was announced at the same time as the salary cap change was aired to us via the the press, by IL ! and has effectively freed up a load of cap space for you.

the gripe is that wigan have engineered a salary caps change (as good as it is for a few other clubs) that benefits them before anyone else.

I can see why some people are a bit narked by it.