: Thu Feb 12, 2009 12:30 pm  

af wrote:

We're not talking 'cannot'. We're talking 'has not'. Will get back to you on the rest of it.

if they can (as is has not) then they should have, the fact they haven’t is a failing,

if they cant then they cant and SL isnt where they should be

: Thu Feb 12, 2009 2:07 pm  

RL's future is kids having a career path available to them, one not restricted by quick fixes which take away the financial rewards needed to provide that career path.
Clubs not contributing to the player pool must make way for those that can or do.
It is also flawed asking a non SL club to meet SL standards in this area, as the best kids from its catchment will migrate to a SL club for the career path.
Solution? Maybe the best 30 kids in each age group 14-18 should be housed, schooled and coached at RL/SL expense at which point we have a draft system as in American football.
Cost £2-3m pa from the Sky deal.

: Thu Feb 12, 2009 2:08 pm  

af wrote:

Would that business model have been viable anywhere else other than a booming financial centre with no other Super League club and only one soccer club, in turmoil?

Dunno but no sure how Leeds United's turmoil is relevant as they've always enjoyed significant crowds and when the majority of this crop of juniors came on board Leeds United were a Champions League club.

Hang on... IIRC Leeds still invested in overseas players - Mullins, Clyde, Ben Walker, Gary Mercer (!) - they just weren't that good. I don't recall this purgatory Leeds fans sat through where callow youths got their asses handed to them. Leeds were in a position to compete in the here and now while keeping the youth side plate spinning at the same time. That they didn't win consistently until relatively recently was more due to crap recruitment (and Bradford not committing hari-kari... yet) than enlightened nurturing.

They did. However, they cut their cloth whilst waiting for their youth policy to reap rewards. You;ve mentioned the names over quality overseas players who were signed at the turn of the millennium. We were in a position to do that because the likes of Sinfield, JJB, Diskin, Burrow and others were starting to emerge to fill the majority of squad places. WHilst we were waiting for that to happen we had overseas signings of the calibre of Mathiou, Damian Gibson and Martin Masella.

There wasn't purgatory but there were a good few years of dissent where SOuthstander was full of "Burrow isn't good enough- sign Kimmorley, JJB is garbage - sign Menzies". You know, like red Amber and Black nowadays

Of course, we still sign overseas players but now we're in a much stronger position so that when Webb gets injured pre Grand Final, in steps Lee Smith and wins MOM. We're hardly missing a beat because Eastwood is still trapped in Aus. etc etc.

I think you've picked up Smokey TA's argument which is flawed - it fails to recognise that not every side is as favourably placed Leeds are in and so it will take a greater effort to reap similar results.

I think his argument is spot on actually. Nearly all the Super league clubs are in a better position than Leeds were in when HG and Caddick took over. We were insolvent and Leeds United were in the champions league. Leeds is a big city, granted. So is London. So is Manchester. I am not an amateur RL expert but I'd imagine there's more armature teams in Calder, Wigan/St helens, Cumbria and Hull than there are in Leeds. So having a big city and a lot of amatuer clubs isn't a gimmee

You say Gary H and Caddick must take all credit for the youth policy but look at the Leeds 1998 GF side - Morley, Rivett, Newton, St Hilaire, Holroyd, Cummins - six of the side were Leeds products from the previous regime. If the derided Alf Davies era can contribute over a third of a side that walks out at Old Trafford, doesn't that suggest that Leeds might be particularly well-positioned to develop their own players?

You Make a good point. The work was started by Dough Laughton and Bob Pickles and carried on by Dean Bell. Nobody has quite grasped the mantle in the same way as Hetheringt8on though. However, the players you mention don't show Leeds have any sort of advantage. Morley is a Salford lad, Newton Wiganer and Holroyd Halifax. Leeds had to get out to other regions and scout those lads. How is that well positioned? It's well done and it's poorly done by the clubs that were really well positioned to sign them as juniors, Salford, Wigan and Halifax. St Hilaire was signed for a large fee from Huddersfield and Cummins is from Dewsbury btw so none of those were "well positioned" for Leeds to snap up.

GH and PC do deserve praise for what they have achieved but it does not necessarily follow that any club that has not replicated that success has only itself to blame. Circumstances matter.

Perhaps but nor does it mean the same can't be done by every club with a degree of effort and a diversion of resources away from antipodean players.

: Thu Feb 12, 2009 2:32 pm  

SmokeyTA wrote:

if they can (as is has not) then they should have, the fact they haven’t is a failing,

if they cant then they cant and SL isnt where they should be

or they have just come into SL and have to be given time to get all the criteria areas up to full speed!

I am confident it won't take us the 12 years its taken some clubs to get 4 or 5 jnrs developed!

: Thu Feb 12, 2009 2:43 pm  

JB Down Under wrote:

or they have just come into SL and have to be given time to get all the criteria areas up to full speed!

I am confident it won't take us the 12 years its taken some clubs to get 4 or 5 jnrs developed!

by up to speed you mean ignoring youth development in favour of overseas players!

this is your third year in SL, it is your 2 year of league position being secondary, you have had since september 2007 to find and blood some young british players, you havent,

you spent a fair old whack on an average Aussie youngster though, When you had I’anson in reserve, why didn’t he get a shot?

there is no excuse other than poor development for you still to need 10 overseas players in your third year of SL, its more than Les Catalans had in their third year

Re: Saints, Champions of Junior development : Thu Feb 12, 2009 3:47 pm  

The Chair Maker wrote:

According to the RFL's own regulations regarding the development of players. Saints have come top in terms of "club trained players"

Club trained players are players who are on the clubs register and were trained by that club for three years before that player reached the age of 21.

Saints have 14 of our 25 man squad in that category

Next are Leeds and Hull with 13
then
Wigan have 11
Bradford 10
Warrington 10
Castleford 7
Catalans 6
Quins 5
Wakefield 5
Salford 5
Huddersfield 4
Hull KR 1
Celtic 0

I think its interesting to note the performance of Quins and Catalans.
They are developing players as well or better than a number of the traditional heartland clubs.

Hull KR's performance on the development front is pathetic, and is in stark contrast to the excellent work of Hull FC.

i'm confused as we have a 29 man squad and 12 of them are/have come through the castleford ranks - could argueand you could say that another 3 are local lads - fordo, ferres and hudson.

so i am interested to know hoe these statistics have been compiled!!!

[tb]

Re: Saints, Champions of Junior development : Thu Feb 12, 2009 3:51 pm  

WRE wrote:

i'm confused as we have a 29 man squad and 12 of them are/have come through the castleford ranks - could argueand you could say that another 3 are local lads - fordo, ferres and hudson.

so i am interested to know hoe these statistics have been compiled!!!

At a guess, from the players in the 25 man squad registered with the RLF as the first team squad, who were trained by that club for three years before that player reached the age of 21

Re: Saints, Champions of Junior development : Thu Feb 12, 2009 3:55 pm  

tb wrote:

At a guess, from the players in the 25 man squad registered with the RLF as the first team squad, who were trained by that club for three years before that player reached the age of 21

question then, how has saints' been calculated based upon their 30 man squad from their web site or the 25 man squad registered with the RFL?


* 1. Paul Wellens
* 2. Ade Gardner
* 3. Matt Gidley
* 5. Francis Meli
* 6. Leon Pryce
* 7. Sean Long
* 8. Jason Cayless
* 9. Keiron Cunningham
* 10. James Graham
* 11. Lee Gilmour
* 12. Jon Wilkin
* 13. Chris Flannery
* 14. James Roby
* 15. Bryn Hargreaves
* 16. Tony Puletua
* 17. Paul Clough
* 18. Kyle Eastmond
* 19. Chris Dean
* 20. Gareth Frodsham
* 21. Gary Wheeler
* 22. Shaun Magennis
* 23. Maurie Fa'asavalu
* 24. Andrew Dixon
* 25. Jamie Foster
* 26. Andrew Yates
* 27. Jamie Ellis
* 28. Matty Ashurst
* 29. Tom Armstrong
* 30. Jonny Lomax
* 31, Jacob Emmit

Re: Saints, Champions of Junior development : Thu Feb 12, 2009 3:56 pm  

tb wrote:

At a guess, from the players in the 25 man squad registered with the RLF as the first team squad, who were trained by that club for three years before that player reached the age of 21

Wouldn't that leave at least 9?

Re: Saints, Champions of Junior development : Thu Feb 12, 2009 5:05 pm  

WRE wrote:

question then, how has saints' been calculated based upon their 30 man squad from their web site or the 25 man squad registered with the RFL?


* 1. Paul Wellens
* 2. Ade Gardner
* 3. Matt Gidley
* 5. Francis Meli
* 6. Leon Pryce
* 7. Sean Long
* 8. Jason Cayless
* 9. Keiron Cunningham
* 10. James Graham
* 11. Lee Gilmour
* 12. Jon Wilkin
* 13. Chris Flannery
* 14. James Roby
* 15. Bryn Hargreaves
* 16. Tony Puletua
* 17. Paul Clough
* 18. Kyle Eastmond
* 19. Chris Dean
* 20. Gareth Frodsham
* 21. Gary Wheeler
* 22. Shaun Magennis
* 23. Maurie Fa'asavalu
* 24. Andrew Dixon
* 25. Jamie Foster
* 26. Andrew Yates
* 27. Jamie Ellis
* 28. Matty Ashurst
* 29. Tom Armstrong
* 30. Jonny Lomax
* 31, Jacob Emmit

To find the answer pick up RL Express. Its all explained in 8 glorious pages of info on a club by club basis.
TB is i believe on the right lines with what he has said about 25 first team players which need be registered with RFL.
Theres a lot in there including details about how salary cap has been increased and which players can get exemptions from the cap.