: Fri Apr 10, 2009 10:10 pm  

Dave T wrote:

If I knock the ball forward, and you are a teammate of mine and catch the ball, it is still a knock on. Because I didn't pass the ball, I knocked it forwards and didn;t regain it myself.

JJB knocked the ball forwards, and he didn;t regain it himself.

You said yourself it is a legitimate method of transfering the ball.

Imagine if that was open play and it happened. The referee would have given a forward pass for it.

: Fri Apr 10, 2009 10:11 pm  

Dave Lister wrote:

It did not hit the floor or another player. The ball went from one player to another. This is a pass, IMO.

So in your opinion, is there no such this as a forward pass that hits the floor in the same way as there is no such thing as a knock on that is caught?

: Fri Apr 10, 2009 10:12 pm  

Derwent wrote:

The point is how can the VR decide that when he is not allowed to judge if it went forwards or not ? In this instance he could no more decide if it was a knock on than he could if it were a forward pass.

if it was forward then it was marginal at best, if what JJB had done had been interpreted as a pass then he couldnt have ruled it out because cameras cant tell when a ball moves forward, but they can when what he did was interpreted as a knock (on or back)

: Fri Apr 10, 2009 10:13 pm  

Dave Lister wrote:

So how can Alibert make such a judgement? Its ridiculously subjective. And IMO it was a pass. I know plenty agree and plenty disagree but i'll stick by it unless some laws of the game suggest otherwise.

What judgement? It either was a knock-on (based on the fairly clear definition of a knock-on) or it wasn't. Whether or not it was also a pass is irrelevant.

: Fri Apr 10, 2009 10:13 pm  

Dave Lister wrote:

You said yourself it is a legitimate method of transfering the ball.

Imagine if that was open play and it happened. The referee would have given a forward pass for it.

The ref would have signalled that the ball had gone forward. The decision is exactly the same, so it wouldn't make a difference what signal he gives.

Knocking the ball backwards is a legitimate way of passing, knocking it forwards is a knock on.

Imaging this was a high kick to the corner, when the winger jumps up and knocks the ball back, that is fine. If he knocks it forward and his own player gathers it, it would be a knock on, as it is clearly not a pass.

: Fri Apr 10, 2009 10:14 pm  

Perhaps I am in a minority, but I think there has been a quantum leap in the standards of reffing this season. Although there reluctance to penalise holding down is making for slower games this season.

: Fri Apr 10, 2009 10:17 pm  

SBR wrote:

What judgement? It either was a knock-on (based on the fairly clear definition of a knock-on) or it wasn't. Whether or not it was also a pass is irrelevant.

In this particular instance the VR was asked to make a decision based on the flight and trajectory of the ball. If he is not allowed to decide on forward passes due to camera angles etc then how could he judge this particular incident ?

: Fri Apr 10, 2009 10:19 pm  

the refs are "letting the game flow" more this year - this is of course code for forgetting the rules/allowing teams to get away with breaking the rules

it hurts the better teams and stifles the more creative players, dragging everyone down to the same standard - we will never win an international competition by reducing standards to make the league more competitive

: Fri Apr 10, 2009 10:21 pm  

Derwent wrote:

In this particular instance the VR was asked to make a decision based on the flight and trajectory of the ball. If he is not allowed to decide on forward passes due to camera angles etc then how could he judge this particular incident ?

Not in this instance. With a knock on, it is black and white. You look where the ball was touched first and then where it was next touched. IMO it was in front of the first point.

Things like momentum do not come into knock on decisions.

That is one of the reasons forward pass decisions are so difficult.

: Fri Apr 10, 2009 10:23 pm  

hopie4ever wrote:

the refs are "letting the game flow" more this year - this is of course code for forgetting the rules/allowing teams to get away with breaking the rules

it hurts the better teams and stifles the more creative players, dragging everyone down to the same standard - we will never win an international competition by reducing standards to make the league more competitive

Or perhaps it puts us more in line with the NRL refs who last year were letting plenty go (as we saw in the World Cup!).

By allowing a little more holding down, there is an argument that this will develop skills more, as you need to be better to break defences as they can get set, rather than making cheap yards through scoots from acting half and simply winning through pace.