Re: New season Same old crappy refing : Sat Feb 07, 2015 1:06 pm  

The potential issues that were raised when the new VR system was announced seem to be coming to fruition. Forcing the ref to guess does not make it any likelier that we will get a correct decision. Quite the opposite, and this goes against the whole purpose of the VR, which is to improve decision making.

In last night's game two "no try" calls were upheld by the VR because they could not "conclusively prove" he was wrong. However, if there isn't any proof in the first place that the ref was right then the system breaks down. If there is no evidence of a knock on or anything else that disproves the try then the try should stand rather than reverting back to the referee's guess.

And speaking of last night's game, they're a bunch of niggling cheaters Saints aren't they? Cunningham clearly coaches them to do it!

Re: New season Same old crappy refing : Sat Feb 07, 2015 2:42 pm  

Albion wrote:

Betham did better than Child but I think he went a bit crazy in the 10mins before half time. He got a bit carried away. Teams are never all onside on the line. He never gave it after that point when both us and Catalan were doing it second half!

I can see what you mean but, a lot of the Saints players were almost in front of the play of the ball at times, it was ridiculous.

Re: New season Same old crappy refing : Sat Feb 07, 2015 3:45 pm  

Charlie Sheen wrote:

I can see what you mean but, a lot of the Saints players were almost in front of the play of the ball at times, it was ridiculous.

Things like penalising the blind side when Catalans went open was pedantic though, and as said if that happened every time, we'd still be going.

Anyway, sounds a LOT of penalties in the Salford vs Warrington match (following it on Twitter) as well, including a sin binning, so it looks like it's this years riffing fad ...

Re: New season Same old crappy refing : Sat Feb 07, 2015 4:33 pm  

TheElectricGlidingWarrior wrote:

The potential issues that were raised when the new VR system was announced seem to be coming to fruition. Forcing the ref to guess does not make it any likelier that we will get a correct decision.

That is illogical. Unless a VR is present the referee simply MUST make a decision, with only the other on-field officials for assistance. What do you think the ref would do if there was no VR? Shrug his shoulders and say, "Fook me, I have no clue what that was", and halt the game?

In fact, the referee's job is, several thousand times a game, to make decisions. About everything. Every little thing. Making a decision is basing your decision on what you see and what you know. He isn't "guessing". He is simply saying "IF I WAS REFFING THIS GAME WITH NO VR, THEN I COULD NOT GIVE A TRY, BASED ON WHAT I SAW".

The new arrangement sensibly has it that, if the VR actually does see something which shows the try WAS scored then the VR awards the try. I know the hysterical Sky team like to say this is "overruling" the ref, but if you understand the process, it actually isn't. It is making a more informed decision armed with more complete information.

Of course it also does cover any case if a ref really did "guess" at a decision" but I don't see how that affects things, as no ref's call will be "overturned" unless it's clear it wouldn't be the right call.

In last night's game two "no try" calls were upheld by the VR because they could not "conclusively prove" he was wrong. However, if there isn't any proof in the first place that the ref was right then the system breaks down.

No! If on video review there is no reason to say the ref was wrong, then why the hell should his judgement call not stand? There isn't and never has been any requirement that a ref must "have proof" that each and every ecision is conclusively correct with zero doubt. It has always been the case that the ref makes a call on what he sees and that is very often not much.

If there is no evidence of a knock on or anything else that disproves the try then the try should stand rather than reverting back to the referee's guess.

Once again, the ref is not "guessing". In this situation he is usually saying
"If there was no VR then I would award/not award that "try". As it is my job to make a decision. But I have doubts, and so given there IS a VR, I am asking them to have a closer look".

And speaking of last night's game, they're a bunch of niggling cheaters Saints aren't they? Cunningham clearly coaches them to do it!

Indeed!

Re: New season Same old crappy refing : Sat Feb 07, 2015 4:40 pm  

I like the 'NRL' system they're using now. Refs need to take responsibility. And, as noted, it sits better with the comparison with games where no video ref is available.

Re: New season Same old crappy refing : Sat Feb 07, 2015 5:19 pm  

The new VR process is a joke, if the referee isn't sure he shouldn't just be made to guess just beacause they do it in the NRL.

We have already seen some strange VR decisions and we have only had 2 TV games

Re: New season Same old crappy refing : Sat Feb 07, 2015 5:26 pm  

The current crop of refs may have their critics but surely one thing you can't accuse them of is not taking responsibility? I mean, the odd televised game apart, what have they been doing as professional referees week in week out for many years? None of them seem that shy to me

Re: New season Same old crappy refing : Sat Feb 07, 2015 6:07 pm  

Ferocious Aardvark wrote:

That is illogical. Unless a VR is present the referee simply MUST make a decision, with only the other on-field officials for assistance. What do you think the ref would do if there was no VR? Shrug his shoulders and say, "Fook me, I have no clue what that was", and halt the game?

In fact, the referee's job is, several thousand times a game, to make decisions. About everything. Every little thing. Making a decision is basing your decision on what you see and what you know. He isn't "guessing". He is simply saying "IF I WAS REFFING THIS GAME WITH NO VR, THEN I COULD NOT GIVE A TRY, BASED ON WHAT I SAW".

The new arrangement sensibly has it that, if the VR actually does see something which shows the try WAS scored then the VR awards the try. I know the hysterical Sky team like to say this is "overruling" the ref, but if you understand the process, it actually isn't. It is making a more informed decision armed with more complete information.

Of course it also does cover any case if a ref really did "guess" at a decision" but I don't see how that affects things, as no ref's call will be "overturned" unless it's clear it wouldn't be the right call.

No! If on video review there is no reason to say the ref was wrong, then why the hell should his judgement call not stand? There isn't and never has been any requirement that a ref must "have proof" that each and every ecision is conclusively correct with zero doubt. It has always been the case that the ref makes a call on what he sees and that is very often not much.

Once again, the ref is not "guessing". In this situation he is usually saying
"If there was no VR then I would award/not award that "try". As it is my job to make a decision. But I have doubts, and so given there IS a VR, I am asking them to have a closer look".

Indeed!

At a non televised game it is necessary for the ref to make the call one way or the other. At a televised game it isn't necessary, so it is without a doubt illogical to force him to do so. Sure, there will be times when he has little doubt, and I'm all for communication between the on field and off field officials to state their perception and surety of a call and thus improve decision making, but there will also be times when he genuinely doesn't know and will be forced to make a call for no other reason than" that's what he'd have to do if the VR wasn't here."

Re: New season Same old crappy refing : Sat Feb 07, 2015 7:59 pm  

Say what you like about Bentham, he deserves a lot of credit for querying the quality of Greg Bird's moustache during the Four Nations Final!

Re: New season Same old crappy refing : Sun Feb 08, 2015 2:26 am  

TheElectricGlidingWarrior wrote:

At a non televised game it is necessary for the ref to make the call one way or the other. At a televised game it isn't necessary, so it is without a doubt illogical to force him to do so. Sure, there will be times when he has little doubt, and I'm all for communication between the on field and off field officials to state their perception and surety of a call and thus improve decision making, but there will also be times when he genuinely doesn't know and will be forced to make a call for no other reason than" that's what he'd have to do if the VR wasn't here."

Nope. He's a ref. Making calls is what he does. There's no "forcing" involved. He's the man in charge and his call is law. All he is now doing is announcing what his call is, just like he otherwise would, but allowing a review of his decision if he thinks there is sufficient doubt that he'd like it re-assessed with the benefit of video replays.

I think cases where the ref "genuinely doesn't know" (and nor do his assistants) would be rare indeed but in those circumstances he doesn't go home, scratching his arrse, he decides "no try". I don't know why you can't get your head around that simple point.