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Re: English Fringe Players. : Fri Apr 29, 2016 5:05 pm  
SmokeyTA wrote:
Inglis, Boyd, Duggan, Slater, Tuivasa-Sheck offer far more than backing up.

At SL level you can get away with a fullback who is fast and follows up. At international level it just isnt good enough.

I meant in the British game not the NRL.
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Re: English Fringe Players. : Fri Apr 29, 2016 5:15 pm  
FLAT STANLEY wrote:
So, what should happen if Hardaker and Watkins's poor form continues and Tomkins returns only to also perform at a mediocre level. Do you pick the player with ill-form with a reputation or pick a fresh face who's chomping at the bit and is in good form?

form can change in an instant. If you arent good enough it takes a long time improve.

I think Tomkins is still the incumbent. Hardaker was MoS last year and played well for England. I dont think his drop off has been as extreme as some make out. Both have years left in them. I think someone has to be very very good to displace either of them. Not just in decent form but being very very good.

Watkins is still the only natural centre who has shown international quality that we have. His form has been poor but our route to success isnt to fill our backs with second rowers or any of the dross we have as actual centres in this country.

As a leeds fan i hope none of them get picked. We look a very tired side right now and many players havent had time off for years. A winter off can only be great for us.

As an England fan going in to a 4 nations with a back line of Shaul, Russell, Bateman, Atkins, and Johnstone terrifies me.
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Re: English Fringe Players. : Fri Apr 29, 2016 5:38 pm  
SmokeyTA wrote:
As an England fan going in to a 4 nations with a back line of Shaul, Russell, Bateman, Atkins, and Johnstone terrifies me.


That is the worry for me if you go with a whole host of new names. NZ and OZ as we know have world class three quarters and we have only just begun to be able to contain them with the likes of Hall, Watkins and recently mcgillvary at the forefront of that. The step up from SL level to that level is huge, and very unforgiving. Hopefully certain players can find form for the sake of the nations chances later in the year.If in any kind of form a three quarter line of:

Tomkins / Hardaker
mcgillvary
Watkins
Reed
Hall

would still provide our best opportunity of competing imo.
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Re: English Fringe Players. : Fri Apr 29, 2016 5:45 pm  
SmokeyTA wrote:
form can change in an instant. If you arent good enough it takes a long time improve
I know so why is it taking Watkins and Hardaker so long. I'm a big fan of Kallum but his form is woeful.
SmokeyTA Wrote: I think Tomkins is still the incumbent. Hardaker was MoS last year and played well for England. I dont think his drop off has been as extreme as some make out. Both have years left in them. I think someone has to be very very good to displace either of them. Not just in decent form but being very very good.
I understand what you're saying. An in-form Shaul is nowhere near as good as an in-form Tomkins or Hardaker. Admittedly , they're both a cut above the rest when in-form. No doubt.
SmokeyTA Wrote: Watkins is still the only natural centre who has shown international quality that we have. His form has been poor but our route to success isnt to fill our backs with second rowers or any of the dross we have as actual centres in this country. As a leeds fan i hope none of them get picked. We look a very tired side right now and many players havent had time off for years. A winter off can only be great for us
.
I tbink we're lacking strike players at Centre. Kallum has the XFactor attributes but his form is woeful and the length of time its lingered worries me. I think Bennett will draught in Reed and possibly Ben Currie and probably Sarginson to join Watkins as his Centres.
SmokeyTA Wrote: As an England fan going in to a 4 nations with a back line of Shaul, Russell, Bateman, Atkins, and Johnstone terrifies me.

Yes looking at it on paper I see your point. Fair enough playing them against a unmeaningful game against Wales or France, but against Australia and New Zealand you want or need your best quality personnel.
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Do not converse with me you filthy minded deviant.


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Re: English Fringe Players. : Fri Apr 29, 2016 5:50 pm  
Biff Tannen wrote:
That is the worry for me if you go with a whole host of new names. NZ and OZ as we know have world class three quarters and we have only just begun to be able to contain them with the likes of Hall, Watkins and recently mcgillvary at the forefront of that. The step up from SL level to that level is huge, and very unforgiving. Hopefully certain players can find form for the sake of the nations chances later in the year.If in any kind of form a three quarter line of:

Tomkins / Hardaker
mcgillvary
Watkins
Reed
Hall

would still provide our best opportunity of competing imo.

the thing is we see every year that alot of these names who get bandied about dont even step up to play-off intensity, never mind international level.

We see teams like Huddersfield last year pushing the Leeds and Wigans during the regular season, and bowing out 32-8 when that level steps up. The same with Hudds and Cas in 2014 losing 57-4 and 41-0 respectively and those were clubs finishing top 4.
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bUsTiNyAbALLs wrote:
Do not converse with me you filthy minded deviant.


vastman wrote:
My rage isn't impotent luv, I'm frothing at the mouth actually.

Re: English Fringe Players. : Fri Apr 29, 2016 6:01 pm  
FLAT STANLEY wrote:
I know so why is it taking Watkins and Hardaker so long. I'm a big fan of Kallum but his form is woeful.
Leeds on the whole have been woeful. These things happen, he is player with little confidence right now, playing for a team playing poorly. He will come good.
I understand what you're saying. An in-form Shaul is nowhere near as good as an in-form Tomkins or Hardaker. Admittedly , they're both a cut above the rest when in-form. No doubt.
.
I tbink we're lacking strike players at Centre. Kallum has the XFactor attributes but his form is woeful and the length of time its lingered worries me. I think Bennett will draught in Reed and possibly Ben Currie and probably Sarginson to join Watkins as his Centres.
Yes looking at it on paper I see your point. Fair enough playing them against a unmeaningful game against Wales or France, but against Australia and New Zealand you want or need your best quality personnel.

There is a knock on effect of playing a back line with Reed, and Currie or Sarginson. Reed is a fantastic defensive centre, he isnt in the same mould as Watkins. Currie similarly is a 2nd rower filling in. He isnt as creative or have that same physical mix of speed and power as Watkins.

Playing two centres like that, inside say Hall and Mcgilvery would see a very ponderous outside line. The defense can compress in safe in the knowledge that should we get on the outside we can be caught. Watkins sheer presence asks questions, he is one of the few who can physically stand up to the Aussies, and has the skill to get the ball away. Regardless of his form he has to be covered which creates space for others. The only other centre we have of a similar ilk is Cudjoe who is nowhere near as good and hardly in great form himself.

I like Going with Hall outside Reed as both are big and strong and can push their way over, i like a Burgess type winger outside Watkins as they are a bit faster and a bit more skillful and can attack from deep.
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Re: English Fringe Players. : Fri Apr 29, 2016 7:00 pm  
SmokeyTA wrote:
form can change in an instant. If you arent good enough it takes a long time improve.

I think Tomkins is still the incumbent. Hardaker was MoS last year and played well for England. I dont think his drop off has been as extreme as some make out. Both have years left in them. I think someone has to be very very good to displace either of them. Not just in decent form but being very very good.

Watkins is still the only natural centre who has shown international quality that we have. His form has been poor but our route to success isnt to fill our backs with second rowers or any of the dross we have as actual centres in this country.

As a leeds fan i hope none of them get picked. We look a very tired side right now and many players havent had time off for years. A winter off can only be great for us.

As an England fan going in to a 4 nations with a back line of Shaul, Russell, Bateman, Atkins, and Johnstone terrifies me.


How often have you senn Johnstone play?

Hardly at all but still you're an expert.

Johnstone is already the real deal and would do just fine, if you'd seen him develop like we have you'd know nothing fazes the lad.

However I'm more than happy for him to sit it out. You see Tom only has one direction and that's forward. So if he doesn't get a go this year and has to wait till next it will just make his international debut all the more spectacular.

I know it's impossible for you to accept but Wakefield have unearthed a gem here, a player who only injury or self destruction can stop from becoming world class and that is a once in a decade event. Funny thing is Wakefield supplied the last world class British player before Burgess. You should be gratefull but you won't.
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Re: English Fringe Players. : Fri Apr 29, 2016 10:08 pm  
Things could and probably should be different come the end of the year if things continue as they have been doing. I didn't think I'd be questioning Ryan Halls place in an England line up for a long time yet but the form of players like McGillvary, Manfredi and Johnstone have got me doing that. In the forwards players like Currie and Bateman are really making waves as well and that's much needed because the back row was starting to look an area of concern.

If people think Bennett will pick form players or not at least we can have these debates! A while ago we only had about 2 or 3 positions where we had realistic choices. We now have a number of options in various positions all over the field (even in the halves although I think most will agree that's an area of concern in regards to quality).
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Re: English Fringe Players. : Fri Apr 29, 2016 10:55 pm  
Hopefully we can be adding Lomax to the full back contenders by the end of the season.
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Re: English Fringe Players. : Sat Apr 30, 2016 7:41 am  
The other thing to consider re: Hal, Hardaker, Watkins, McGilvary is that they could potentially be playing the last 2 months of the season in a semi-professional competition. Hardly ideal preparation for an international series.
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