Re: Red star Belgrade bid to join league 1 : Mon Jan 13, 2020 11:57 pm  

Him wrote: The article you linked to said nothing about excluding overseas clubs, in fact it included Catalans, Toulouse, Toronto and New York. You’ve said several times on several threads SL don’t want overseas clubs, can you link to anything or provide any evidence for that claim? To be fair to Donny, he has quoted articles that the RL printed but in some cases did not replicate on-line. Here's an article that highlights the "concerns" some SL decision makers have regarding overseas based clubs https://www.totalrl.com/adam-pearson-outlines-super-leagues-concerns-on-overseas-invasion/ Here's the stance of the RFL as of Jan 13th https://www.totalrl.com/england-coaching-situation-and-north-america-expansion-bids-set-for-resolution/ In other news, Rimmer confirmed announcements on the prospects of the New York and Ottawa franchises would be made shortly. “We’ve contacted both clubs with the terms under which we expect them to cooperate if they want to come into the competitions. “There will be some announcements very soon. I’ve contacted both clubs, as I say. They were initially disappointed but they understood that our role as a governing body is to tick as many boxes as possible for a team coming into the competitions. “We’re there to not only protect someone who comes in but the competition and its integrity. It’s not quite as straightforward as a team coming in, there’s a lot to get through. But we have the Wolfpack as a learning journey and that journey continues to teach us some lessons.” Though Rimmer cast doubt on the prospect of Red Star Belgrade joining the structure next year, despite stating their intent to do so. When asked if their optimism surrounding 2021 entry was fair he replied: “I love an optimist. “There are others too. What I think is really exciting is we’ve created something that people want to join and want membership of. It’s attracting bids from all over – some more credible than others – but the fact people aspire to be a part of it is great.” So it looks like Ottawa and NYC will be facing further delays whilst RSB won't be joining in the near future......

Him wrote: The article you linked to said nothing about excluding overseas clubs, in fact it included Catalans, Toulouse, Toronto and New York. You’ve said several times on several threads SL don’t want overseas clubs, can you link to anything or provide any evidence for that claim? To be fair to Donny, he has quoted articles that the RL printed but in some cases did not replicate on-line. Here's an article that highlights the "concerns" some SL decision makers have regarding overseas based clubs https://www.totalrl.com/adam-pearson-outlines-super-leagues-concerns-on-overseas-invasion/ Here's the stance of the RFL as of Jan 13th https://www.totalrl.com/england-coaching-situation-and-north-america-expansion-bids-set-for-resolution/ In other news, Rimmer confirmed announcements on the prospects of the New York and Ottawa franchises would be made shortly. “We’ve contacted both clubs with the terms under which we expect them to cooperate if they want to come into the competitions. “There will be some announcements very soon. I’ve contacted both clubs, as I say. They were initially disappointed but they understood that our role as a governing body is to tick as many boxes as possible for a team coming into the competitions. “We’re there to not only protect someone who comes in but the competition and its integrity. It’s not quite as straightforward as a team coming in, there’s a lot to get through. But we have the Wolfpack as a learning journey and that journey continues to teach us some lessons.” Though Rimmer cast doubt on the prospect of Red Star Belgrade joining the structure next year, despite stating their intent to do so. When asked if their optimism surrounding 2021 entry was fair he replied: “I love an optimist. “There are others too. What I think is really exciting is we’ve created something that people want to join and want membership of. It’s attracting bids from all over – some more credible than others – but the fact people aspire to be a part of it is great.” So it looks like Ottawa and NYC will be facing further delays whilst RSB won't be joining in the near future......

Re: Red star Belgrade bid to join league 1 : Tue Jan 14, 2020 9:31 am  

Him wrote:

The article you linked to said nothing about excluding overseas clubs, in fact it included Catalans, Toulouse, Toronto and New York.
You’ve said several times on several threads SL don’t want overseas clubs, can you link to anything or provide any evidence for that claim?

Yes I can and I have done this already. The problem here (not having a go at you) is people talk off the top of their head then somehow demand "evidence" from others.

The first relevant article was some years back when Toulouse asked SL to consider them for Superleague. Four SL chairmen went to see them led by Lenegan who supported the idea, but they were clear that Toulouse needed to provide evidence of the development of French players capable of playing at Superleague level, a viable financial plan and a paying French television deal . When Toronto came along Perez did an interview with Dave Woods Wood (it's on you tube) and offered the business plan required 1. (Argylles heavy backing) 2. the development of grid iron players into SL quality players "pretty quickly" and 3. the capture of a paying NATV deal. The qualifications needed to enter Superleague were very clear. please look this up and watch it)

Once the championship play off started this year McManus came out in an Article in the RL press entitled "SL needs the French" which basically argued TWP could not be allowed in Superleague unless they started to "produce players". He stated France had a player infrastructure and that they could possibly get a TV deal if both Catalans and TO were in Superleague. You have to note this article merely favoured Toulouse over Toronto, at a time when the winner of the Championship would go up regardless of what SL bosses wanted and needed due to a signed agreement from some years back. Had Leigh won it there would have been no problem.

But what SL bosses most definitely needed was at least "9 English clubs in Superleague" which was a minimum requirement of the SKY contract which I think appeared in an earlier Adam Pearson interview. A later Pearson interview after TWP were promoted opined that the "issue of expansion needed looking at".

Running alongside this narrative of the problems SL clubs had with overseas clubs (no TV deals and no player development apart from some development at Catalans) was Superleague's proposal last year to cut to 10 clubs in Superleague. This was very big news and serious stuff that went to a vote championship clubs scuppered.

Now it doesn't take a genius to work out who Superleague want in Superleague does it? Wigan (Lenegan) Saints (McManus) Warrington (Moran) Castleford (Fulton) Wakefield (Carter) HKR (Hudgell) Leeds (Caddick) Hull (Pearson) Huddersfield (Davey) Leigh (Beaumont).......

My question of you now is how do you fit "expansion" into a new SKY deal Superleague, that by Superleagues own published plans is likely to be a 10 club all-English league. How do you do this when the first club knocking on the door to join in later will be a Nigel Wood and Eric Perez led Bradford Bulls? The above is the basic story of "expansion" in which I can only conclude.....

1. Failed to provide overseas paying TV deals of any kind
2. Failed to provide a significant number of French/NA professionals apart from Catalans who could field a decent French 7 a side team after 14 years??

What's your view on this, I'd be interested in a non Jean/Steph style "Transatlantic league is Le future" soundbite??

Re: Red star Belgrade bid to join league 1 : Tue Jan 14, 2020 10:18 am  

Why is it the individual clubs responsibility to find a Tv deal? It's like the chicken before the egg scenario. Why can't they follow the Nrl model where the broadcaster pays for the sport regardless of what teams are in the league? Then if Sky want a certain team in the league, they can pay more $ in the broadcast deal.

Has a representative from Sky ever publicly stated that they would more English teams or is it just wild speculation on our behalf?

Re: Red star Belgrade bid to join league 1 : Tue Jan 14, 2020 10:26 am  

The Silent H wrote:

Why is it the individual clubs responsibility to find a Tv deal? It's like the chicken before the egg scenario. Why can't they follow the Nrl model where the broadcaster pays for the sport regardless of what teams are in the league? Then if Sky want a certain team in the league, they can pay more $ in the broadcast deal.

Has a representative from Sky ever publicly stated that they would more English teams or is it just wild speculation on our behalf?

The answer to the first part of your post, this is what Toronto said that they would do and IIRC, this is why they dont want/take a slice of the Sky deal.
A one club TV deal in a country not renowned for having any RL following is indeed a strange situation.
However, joined up, progressive thinking something that could ever be part of RL, a sport where finger crossing and straw clutching is the norm.
You can imagine all of the big noises in RL HQ sitting behind the proverbial goose, just waiting (and waiting) for the golden egg to arrive, some of them even think that it's called Toronto

Re: Red star Belgrade bid to join league 1 : Wed Jan 15, 2020 8:40 am  

Grimmy wrote:

Think you're doing a massive disservice to the French amateur game there. They have country's worth of players to themselves between them. Cas and Wakey have a far smaller catchment, and even then will have competition from more successful sides further afield (e.g Wigan's best young prospect is from Halifax, but we couldn't realistically poach a youngster from South France).

I don't think they have a countries worth of players at all. The french game is a heck of a lot smaller than the English game and it's been deteriorating fast. Catalans have had 14 years to build up a conveyor belt of talent. Check my post on Catalans 2006/7 in terms of their French players then against their current squad. Their first team is now nearly all non-french.

Wikipedia roughly reckons that the English game is six times bigger than the French game. Had Toulouse gone up they would undoubtedly have turned to England and Australia for a better team. French RL is deteriorating to the point where the likes of Catalans and Toulouses futures lie in digging heavily into the M62 player pool here even more than they do now, and grabbing surplus Australian talent before it can land in England. That's the reality of the situation.

Re: Red star Belgrade bid to join league 1 : Wed Jan 15, 2020 9:28 am  

Him wrote:

The article you linked to said nothing about excluding overseas clubs, in fact it included Catalans, Toulouse, Toronto and New York.
You’ve said several times on several threads SL don’t want overseas clubs, can you link to anything or provide any evidence for that claim?

Thanks to Le Grange for the Adam Pearson link. These articles die away in time on the net. Nice work LG

Perhaps you Mr. Him would now like to make the case with documentary proof that Superleague do want overseas clubs in their league? It's your turn to be held strictly to account and provide documentary evidence in writing that Superleague are welcoming of overseas clubs? I'd especially like something from 2017 onwards that shows Superleague looking forward to going Transatlantic/pan European??.

What exactly do you think McManus, Pearson and Lenegan are planning alongside Caddick, Hudgell, Moran, Davey, Carter and Fulton for the new TV deal? Do you think it's the current structure of three leagues in which Ottawa, New York, Belgrade, Valencia. Boston. Vancouver and Montreal will all gradually all work their way into Superleague?? How exactly do you think SKY will welcome paying overseas clubs their TV money to be in Superleague when those clubs fans won't be buying subscriptions and maybe not even the products and services of the Advertisors?

On a club level overseas RL giants are likely to target replacing Mr. Fulton's Cas, Mr. Davey's Fartown, Mr. Carters Wakefield and Mr. Hudgell's Hull.K.R. As guest clubs none of the overseas clubs will have any right to replace member clubs in future, any "promotion" will have to be ratified by Superleague in the way they accepted Les Catalans. You know them? That club that fields less and less Frenchmen every season.

On a spectator level do Hull.K.R. fans take it on the chin when KR lose out to Vancouver? Perhaps you think they will merge with Hull? Cas, Wakey and Fartown could merge to free up places for Ottawa, New York and Vancouver. Look forward to your vision for the game? Will it match the vision of 80% of RL fans in the city of Hull who don't see it?



,