Re: 2019 Super League Ins & Outs : Thu Nov 08, 2018 2:56 pm  

Sal Paradise wrote:

So what you are saying is Parcell can only play behind a dominant pack - well most hookers can play behind a dominant pack its what they do when they don't have things all their own way - in that Parcell failed miserably. Cuthbertson is a busted flush who thinks he is a half back and doesn't want the hard stuff that comes with being a prop - time he was gone.

If culture goes west its takes months/years to turn that around - Sinfield may have seen an improvement in some areas but for that to permeate on to field will be some way off. If the players have become soft on the field due to the previous regime that cannot be changed without a significant change in personnel both on and off the field.

I never heard him once mention injuries - I heard a lot about desire and commitment and his honesty was refreshing and perhaps that was his way of highlighting the issues to the players, coaches and directors. Sometimes you cannot defend the indefensible. Perhaps the players needed to look themselves in the mirror and ask themselves the question if they are in the right place - their fitness was an embarrassment - that is a tangible output of poor culture and something that cannot be put right in 2/3 months. That situation should be put fairly and squarely at the door of the previous coach.

It is obvious you have little time for Sinfield and that is clouding your thoughts about his input and what he inherited from McDermott. If the players don't want to play for the coach/manager the best thing is for them to find a coach they do want to play for. One thing for certain their fitness levels will be significantly higher under Furner and their attitude will be a lot better or they simply will not play.

No I’m not saying Parcell can only play behind a dominate pack, that’s you doing your usual trick of twisting what is written. The pack doesn’t need to be dominant but it has to at least be competitive, you wouldn’t say Leeds’ pack in 2017 was dominant would you (but it wasn’t depleted of front towers) and Parcell did perform well and got into the Dream Team.

Culture doesn’t take years to change that’s just excuses, look at Hudds changing their coach and went from bottom of the table to pushing for top 4 just like that. Like I said as well the performances and effort actually got worst under Sinfield, even if it takes time to change the culture it shouldn’t get worst along the way. No way would we have struggled to negotiate the Middle 8’s as badly under McDermott so it’s clear Sinfield had a negative effect on the team.

If it needs significant change on and off the field then why hasn’t he done it. Yes Furner is coming in but the rest of the coaching setup is pretty much the same and the 2 most experienced guys on the playing staff who should be questioned and responsible if the culture has changed in JJB and Ablett have been rewarded with new deals. The team won the GF last year, won away at grounds we hardly ever win at in Wire and Saints, the latter when we were depleted and unfancied snd less than a dozen games prior to McDermott’s exit and then losses with a few of them only because of goal kicks against top 4 teams.....that’s not a team that cries out has a cultural problem at all.

I have time for Sinfield. Problem is most fans will look at him with rose tinted glasses because of his performances on the pitch. If somebody from outside of the club came in at the end of last year and presided over those performances and criticised the culture of a team that had been GF winners then the fans wouldn’t be patting him on the back like they are Sinfield. People are saying he’s doing a great job but what’s he done really? Slagged off the previous coach and current team, then oversee them perform worst and try and throw the chequebook around and still mostly fail with the latter and leave some of our current squad in limbo with their futures. That is poor, however some fans were so against McDermott, so against the tight purse springs that we needed to do, so desperate to play fantasy dream team rumours signings that they think he’s doing a great job.

It’s clear the guy still has a bee in his bonnet from when McDermott dropped him for a few games early in the 2015 season and has taking the chance to have a pop at him.

Re: 2019 Super League Ins & Outs : Thu Nov 08, 2018 3:59 pm  

wakey_saint wrote:

Depends which Hurrell turns up imo.

True, one factor I hope is encouraging is that he worked with Furner with Tonga when Furner was assistant coach there for a few years and was the one to convince him to come, so playing for a coach he clearly likes is potentially a positive to how he goes.

Re: 2019 Super League Ins & Outs : Thu Nov 08, 2018 4:49 pm  

ThePrinter wrote:

No I’m not saying Parcell can only play behind a dominate pack, that’s you doing your usual trick of twisting what is written. The pack doesn’t need to be dominant but it has to at least be competitive, you wouldn’t say Leeds’ pack in 2017 was dominant would you (but it wasn’t depleted of front towers) and Parcell did perform well and got into the Dream Team.

Culture doesn’t take years to change that’s just excuses, look at Hudds changing their coach and went from bottom of the table to pushing for top 4 just like that. Like I said as well the performances and effort actually got worst under Sinfield, even if it takes time to change the culture it shouldn’t get worst along the way. No way would we have struggled to negotiate the Middle 8’s as badly under McDermott so it’s clear Sinfield had a negative effect on the team.

If it needs significant change on and off the field then why hasn’t he done it. Yes Furner is coming in but the rest of the coaching setup is pretty much the same and the 2 most experienced guys on the playing staff who should be questioned and responsible if the culture has changed in JJB and Ablett have been rewarded with new deals. The team won the GF last year, won away at grounds we hardly ever win at in Wire and Saints, the latter when we were depleted and unfancied snd less than a dozen games prior to McDermott’s exit and then losses with a few of them only because of goal kicks against top 4 teams.....that’s not a team that cries out has a cultural problem at all.

I have time for Sinfield. Problem is most fans will look at him with rose tinted glasses because of his performances on the pitch. If somebody from outside of the club came in at the end of last year and presided over those performances and criticised the culture of a team that had been GF winners then the fans wouldn’t be patting him on the back like they are Sinfield. People are saying he’s doing a great job but what’s he done really? Slagged off the previous coach and current team, then oversee them perform worst and try and throw the chequebook around and still mostly fail with the latter and leave some of our current squad in limbo with their futures. That is poor, however some fans were so against McDermott, so against the tight purse springs that we needed to do, so desperate to play fantasy dream team rumours signings that they think he’s doing a great job.

It’s clear the guy still has a bee in his bonnet from when McDermott dropped him for a few games early in the 2015 season and has taking the chance to have a pop at him.

As usual you answer the points you want and ignore the ones you don't want to answer.

Culture takes a long time to build - quality in the gym is group effort if they all slack off which manifested itself in unfit players - they lost so many games in the last quarter because they physically couldn't handle fitter teams. That is probably what Sinfield was alluding too when he talked about culture. Huddersfield was about players believing in a leader - something McDermott was really good at for the really big games - the rest of the time the the performances on the whole were pretty grim - winning it twice from 5th says much about the standard of play during the regular season under him. Its the coach that sets the expectations - I guarantee those expectations will be significantly higher in 2019

Leeds have changed the two most important roles: the coach and the conditioner the rest of the first team hangers on are there to put the cones out. How much influence do you think James Lowes will have?

In terms of changing things tough on Sinfield given the timing - judge him on the squad he delivers in 2020. I would be very surprised if it isn't a lot stronger than the current squad - the majority of which were developed and brought in during McDermott's reign.

Players on the fringes are always vulnerable - at least players know they do not figure in the club's long term view and as such their best chance of getting a deal is to move now. They will be paid their salary if the stay but they will not be in the shop window to find another deal if they stay until the end of their current deal. This goes on in every club and at least Leeds not waiting 12 months when their contract is running out to tell them - to me that is a very honourable way of handling a difficult situation.

Agree there is tension between McDermott and Sinfield - obvious why McDermott decided to up and leave as soon as he knew Sinfield was returning.

The middle 8s was always going to be tough with a team low on fitness and confidence - they managed to retain their SL status so Sinfield did the short term job he was required to do

Re: 2019 Super League Ins & Outs : Thu Nov 08, 2018 5:30 pm  

Sal Paradise wrote:

As usual you answer the points you want and ignore the ones you don't want to answer.

Culture takes a long time to build - quality in the gym is group effort if they all slack off which manifested itself in unfit players - they lost so many games in the last quarter because they physically couldn't handle fitter teams. That is probably what Sinfield was alluding too when he talked about culture. Huddersfield was about players believing in a leader - something McDermott was really good at for the really big games - the rest of the time the the performances on the whole were pretty grim - winning it twice from 5th says much about the standard of play during the regular season under him. Its the coach that sets the expectations - I guarantee those expectations will be significantly higher in 2019

Leeds have changed the two most important roles: the coach and the conditioner the rest of the first team hangers on are there to put the cones out. How much influence do you think James Lowes will have?

In terms of changing things tough on Sinfield given the timing - judge him on the squad he delivers in 2020. I would be very surprised if it isn't a lot stronger than the current squad - the majority of which were developed and brought in during McDermott's reign.

Players on the fringes are always vulnerable - at least players know they do not figure in the club's long term view and as such their best chance of getting a deal is to move now. They will be paid their salary if the stay but they will not be in the shop window to find another deal if they stay until the end of their current deal. This goes on in every club and at least Leeds not waiting 12 months when their contract is running out to tell them - to me that is a very honourable way of handling a difficult situation.

Agree there is tension between McDermott and Sinfield - obvious why McDermott decided to up and leave as soon as he knew Sinfield was returning.

The middle 8s was always going to be tough with a team low on fitness and confidence - they managed to retain their SL status so Sinfield did the short term job he was required to do

Or we started to lose games late on because we were playing with a lack of front rowers and without bigger guys it took its toll on the rest of the team trying to compensate for the roles the forwards perform. Look at the start of the year we beat Saints with a strong 2nd half showing, came from behind against HKR to win at Ellamd Road and after trailing 24-0 against Cas early at Elland Road outscored then 24-1 the last 60 mins. None of these fit with your opinion is was just our fitness/culture, we also held onto to wins against Wite and Hull early doors too.

The late losses came after repeatedly playing week upon week with numerous forwards missing and a few of those games we picked up 2 sometimes 3 injuries mid match. The same coaching setup and conditioning had us peaking for the most important and LAST 2 games of 2017 so can’t have been as bad as made out.

The squad probably will be better in 2020 if Sinfield has been given the freedom of the chequebook. Leeds fans in all the excitement of hearing fanciful rumours are ignoring a crucial question......where was the chequebook for pretty much all of McDermott’s reign? Easy to build a better squad when given the money to do so. No coincidence that the chequebook dried up when the Southstand was condemned and the plans for doing the stadium started, as those plans dragged on year upon year the less we seemed to invest in signings even though 5 legends and a MOS FB left in the last few years.

Low and behold stadium work is pretty much done and we know exactly how it’s being paid for (remember we originally planned on selling two areas of land off in Tingley and Weetwood) and we hire an Aussie coach who probably wouldn’t come cheap or without promises of money being spent and we start making big offers to NRL players. Just like when someone has to save and watch the pennies when they’re trying to buy a house, McDermott had to guide us through those tight years and still managed to win trophies we probably had no right to in the circumstances.

Furner and Sinfield probably will have us a better squad in 2020 but where were they in 2016 or 2017 when the money wasn’t being spent?

Re: 2019 Super League Ins & Outs : Thu Nov 08, 2018 6:04 pm  

ThePrinter wrote:

Or we started to lose games late on because we were playing with a lack of front rowers and without bigger guys it took its toll on the rest of the team trying to compensate for the roles the forwards perform. Look at the start of the year we beat Saints with a strong 2nd half showing, came from behind against HKR to win at Ellamd Road and after trailing 24-0 against Cas early at Elland Road outscored then 24-1 the last 60 mins. None of these fit with your opinion is was just our fitness/culture, we also held onto to wins against Wite and Hull early doors too.

The late losses came after repeatedly playing week upon week with numerous forwards missing and a few of those games we picked up 2 sometimes 3 injuries mid match. The same coaching setup and conditioning had us peaking for the most important and LAST 2 games of 2017 so can’t have been as bad as made out.

The squad probably will be better in 2020 if Sinfield has been given the freedom of the chequebook. Leeds fans in all the excitement of hearing fanciful rumours are ignoring a crucial question......where was the chequebook for pretty much all of McDermott’s reign? Easy to build a better squad when given the money to do so. No coincidence that the chequebook dried up when the Southstand was condemned and the plans for doing the stadium started, as those plans dragged on year upon year the less we seemed to invest in signings even though 5 legends and a MOS FB left in the last few years.

Low and behold stadium work is pretty much done and we know exactly how it’s being paid for (remember we originally planned on selling two areas of land off in Tingley and Weetwood) and we hire an Aussie coach who probably wouldn’t come cheap or without promises of money being spent and we start making big offers to NRL players. Just like when someone has to save and watch the pennies when they’re trying to buy a house, McDermott had to guide us through those tight years and still managed to win trophies we probably had no right to in the circumstances.

Furner and Sinfield probably will have us a better squad in 2020 but where were they in 2016 or 2017 when the money wasn’t being spent?

How many games where Leeds ahead after 60 minutes but ended up losing - more than a few. For me that is a mental attitude about closing games out nothing to do with a couple of missing front row forwards. Early season most teams are gelling and getting match fit - it is no surprise that has teams got into their stride Leeds started losing games especially in the latter stages.

On recruitment McDermott had the luxury of Hall, Sinfield, Burrow, Peacock, McGuire, Senior, Webb, Buderus, Watkins, Hardaker already in the squad - there wasn't the need to spend that there is now - how much would you need to assemble that group of players - McDermott was very lucky in what he inherited. He managed to acquire one of the best half backs in SL for 2018 in Myler, he got a NRL player in Petereu so to say the purse strings were tight does not stand up to scrutiny. Other players that arrived from the NRL during his time include: Delanney, Cuthbertson, Moon, Garbutt, Parcell, Aiton, Galloway etc. so McDermott had plenty of money invested in the squad during his time in charge.

If the conditioning was as good as you are suggesting why have Leeds seen fit to make changes?

Re: 2019 Super League Ins & Outs : Thu Nov 08, 2018 6:42 pm  

Oh wow, another VT thread drift - involving one of the muskateers!!!!!

Re: 2019 Super League Ins & Outs : Thu Nov 08, 2018 7:52 pm  

I Understand a superleague club are talking to Fui Fui Moi Moi. But who could be that desperate?

Re: 2019 Super League Ins & Outs : Thu Nov 08, 2018 7:55 pm  

Maccbull_BigBullyBooaza wrote:

I Understand a superleague club are talking to Fui Fui Moi Moi. But who could be that desperate?

Salford surely, maybe London?

Re: 2019 Super League Ins & Outs : Thu Nov 08, 2018 7:58 pm  

Sal Paradise wrote:

How many games where Leeds ahead after 60 minutes but ended up losing - more than a few. For me that is a mental attitude about closing games out nothing to do with a couple of missing front row forwards. Early season most teams are gelling and getting match fit - it is no surprise that has teams got into their stride Leeds started losing games especially in the latter stages.

On recruitment McDermott had the luxury of Hall, Sinfield, Burrow, Peacock, McGuire, Senior, Webb, Buderus, Watkins, Hardaker already in the squad - there wasn't the need to spend that there is now - how much would you need to assemble that group of players - McDermott was very lucky in what he inherited. He managed to acquire one of the best half backs in SL for 2018 in Myler, he got a NRL player in Petereu so to say the purse strings were tight does not stand up to scrutiny. Other players that arrived from the NRL during his time include: Delanney, Cuthbertson, Moon, Garbutt, Parcell, Aiton, Galloway etc. so McDermott had plenty of money invested in the squad during his time in charge.

If the conditioning was as good as you are suggesting why have Leeds seen fit to make changes?

Yes we lost a few games in the final 20 mins. Games against Wigan, Saints, Warrington and Catalans spring to mind. Those teams went on to win silverware and reach finals and we were level or ahead of them late on. A few of those games we scored the same amount of tries and out scored Cas 5 to 4 in the previous aforementioned game at Elland Road and the losses came down to kicks alone. A team whose culture and fitness and overall quality is as bad as you, others and even Sinfield has claimed since he came in doesn't even compete with those teams let alone push them to end of the contest. Sinfield took us from narrowly losing out to silverware winning teams in the final minutes of games to losing to Toronto and struggling to beat other Championship teams.

Most of those players you mentioned above that he inherited had left by the end of 2015, the point being as the years went by those went replaced with similar quality. Maybe we didn't need to splash cash in 2011 (although yourself and others said different back then and every year that followed) but we did as the years past especially the last 3 and we really didn't. Are you really comparing the players recruited to the likes of the names being linked with us now. Those NRL players we brought in weren't big or even close to established players, most project players. You spent you previous posts lamenting how poor Cuthbertson and Parcell are now holding them up as comparable investment to us signing one marquee and going after another marquee signing. Also Moon and Aiton joined from other other SL clubs and do you think Peteru was a big signing?

Sinfield has seen fit to change the conditioner and I'm not saying we couldn't do better and the new guy isn't an improvement but just doing that whilst keeping his mates in their roles on the pitch and on the coaching staff is suspect if the whole culture was as bad as he claimed.

Re: 2019 Super League Ins & Outs : Thu Nov 08, 2018 8:04 pm  

Alan Cargill wrote:

Oh wow, another VT thread drift - involving one of the muskateers!!!!!

True it's drifted a bit but from a genuine starting point of discussing ins and out. Also it's a genuine debate with people making point and counter point which is what a discussion board is about with no insults or trolling attempts thrown around. Also us two having a discussion doesn't stop others posting about ins and outs, which TBF at this point of the offseason their's not going to be much of now.