Re: Toronto Wolfpack may pull out of Superleague : Sat Aug 08, 2020 12:54 pm  

[quote="Vancouver Leyther"]Almost forgot.

Toronto Arrows reported average crowd in 2019........2133.
Toronto Wolfpack reported average crowd in 2019...... 7882

See above crowds aren't the criteria for a growing game. It's a growing pro-player pool and in time more TV money. Perez didn't promise big crowds. TWP lied about them to try to have some sort of excuse for their failure.

We can't look at crowds although as Argylle walked away there's no longer any TWP crowds. There nothing of substance. Pains me to say it but MLR has plenty of substance....

Re: Toronto Wolfpack may pull out of Superleague : Sat Aug 08, 2020 3:01 pm  

Donnyman wrote:

You don't seem to be able to take anything in, especially all the returning fans from the Lamport who cast doubts on the TWP paying crowds three ways....

1. Physically there never seemed to be as many reported actually in the stadia.
2. Money wise many never paid, free tickets and a free gate left open during the match.
3. None of them came over here to swell the crowds.

But again what you mainly can't take in is:-

4. Perez was clear to Dave Woods that TWP would bring us NATV deals and Pro-NA players. Nothing about crowds at all.
5. No TV deals and no players.
6. Your maybe trolling, but it at least gives me chance to remind people of the truth.

It's you that is disparaging to all things Toronto.

Do you think that newly promoted clubs (and many of the others) dont dosh out freebies.
Even if they did, many would struggle to get close to their Championship crowds - remember they have never played at home in SL.
Of course, very few come this way to see games but, perhaps you should find "Gutterfax", he'll explain to you why this isn't that critical.
Although, it's worth noting that despite very few away fans, most clubs enjoyed their highest attendance of the season when Toronto came to town.
So, Perez "bigged up" what Toronto would achieve, good on him for doing so - every club should sell themselves heavily - it's worth noting that the financial "losers" in there not being a NATV deal are...........Toronto, so what the hell is your problem.

As for players, I absolutely agree with you and every club, SL or otherwise, should be developing players.
Having said that, it's still very, very early days for a new club to develop their own, just look how long London took, 20 years ??

If you are so desperate for more English clubs in SL, why not simply advocate this, instead of anti overseas every 2 minutes.
Remember again that from your 5/6 clubs that you are so desperate to have in the top flight.
Widnes, Bradford, Leigh, Feathersone and London have all been there and also been found wanting and yet, YOU want to demote clubs who have EVERY RIGHT to be in SL.
Nothing left to say but, I'm sure that you will keep on moaning as long as you can

Re: Toronto Wolfpack may pull out of Superleague : Sat Aug 08, 2020 7:41 pm  

[quote="Donnyman"]
“ Toronto Arrows reported average crowd in 2019........2133.
Toronto Wolfpack reported average crowd in 2019...... 7882

See above crowds aren't the criteria for a growing game.”

We cant look at a reported average crowd differential of almost 4 to 1 as evidence that Rugby League was more popular in Toronto in 2019 than Rugby Union. It’s a direct comparison of like to like, and even in the same stadium most of the time.
You simply cannot accept facts can you ?

Fact - I’ve been to Lamport 3 times (have you ?) in 2017, 2018 and 2019. I hung out with Toronto fans and players (one who I know personally) and always saw a crowd similar to what was reported.
Fact - Many families and young kids were at each game and loving it.
Fact - Free tickets were given out to many kids in schools, kids organizations and sporting clubs. Kids had to be escorted by a paying adult. (A familiar concept)
Fact - There was no “free gate” though some free tickets were available through sporting clubs and organizations for 2017 and less so 2018 but still available. (I like to give a balanced information)
Fact - Toronto Arrows Rugby Union club are not a success story. They are a one year old team, with no home, playing out of two rented grounds, in a league they had to partially buy to get into. They are also the only professional rugby union team in Canada and the only team in the American MLR (which is only two full seasons old). Their initial TV deal was with Game TV as was TWP’s. There new TSN deal is not a money making deal for them. It is a way of getting exposure. Much like TWP’s TV deal with CBC (Canadian Broadcasting Company) in 2018.
Fact - Rugby Union is poorly organized and very poorly funded at the national and Provincial level in Canada. Club rugby is community level rugby, run by volunteers, funded by paying player members and small fund raising events. They are in no position to stop Rugby League growing in Canada.

Re: Toronto Wolfpack may pull out of Superleague : Sat Aug 08, 2020 8:05 pm  

[quote="Vancouver Leyther"] Fact - Free tickets were given out to many kids in schools, kids organizations and sporting clubs. Fact - There was free tickets were available through sporting clubs and organizations Fact - Toronto Arrows Rugby Union club are not a success story Fact - Rugby Union is poorly organized and very poorly funded at the national and Provincial level in Canada. They are in no position to stop Rugby League growing in Canada. OK so we agree on the extensive free tickets, that's fine by me but FACT Perez promised NA Players and NA TV deals so the crowd thing is irrelevant anyway. You need to concede exactly what Toronto Wolfpack were offering the game here. This was Perez's initial explanation of what TWP offered for entry to the game here.......... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6PIlV68mYc4 This was the first time he said it, he repeated it in numerous interviews after that. Superleague bosses also noted publicly what they sought from "expansion clubs", and understandably it was more players and more TV money. Toronto Wolfpack did not produce one home grown professional RL player nor one canadian dollar from a TV deal to share with SL clubs here - that would be about 10 cents per club but there wasn't even one dollar. Mate - I think Toronto Arrows may or may not be a success story, but my word they have survived and TWP have died. Whatever the dynamics of "growth" Toronto Wolfpack grew nothing, Toronto Arrows grew a Pro Canadian Rugby club full of Canadians. The more you play down the Arrows and Canadian RU the more you expose the relative failure of Toronto Wolfpack and Canadian Rugby League player development. Believe me I wanted them to grow, but the minute they ejected their canadian/american players the alarm bells rang, It was clear Argylle didn't want to build something, he just wanted to buy something. I can understand that as he's pushing 60 and would probably never see professional Canadian RL players come through.... Perez was particularly annoying when pressed, constantly excusing what he promised . He said it would take some years for quality young Canadian players to come through - kicking his own can down the road. He said the big NATV deal would come once there were "5-6 North American clubs in Superleague". But that was and is impossible as the SKY deal is lost without it being predominately English.....

[quote="Vancouver Leyther"] Fact - Free tickets were given out to many kids in schools, kids organizations and sporting clubs. Fact - There was free tickets were available through sporting clubs and organizations Fact - Toronto Arrows Rugby Union club are not a success story Fact - Rugby Union is poorly organized and very poorly funded at the national and Provincial level in Canada. They are in no position to stop Rugby League growing in Canada. OK so we agree on the extensive free tickets, that's fine by me but FACT Perez promised NA Players and NA TV deals so the crowd thing is irrelevant anyway. You need to concede exactly what Toronto Wolfpack were offering the game here. This was Perez's initial explanation of what TWP offered for entry to the game here.......... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6PIlV68mYc4 This was the first time he said it, he repeated it in numerous interviews after that. Superleague bosses also noted publicly what they sought from "expansion clubs", and understandably it was more players and more TV money. Toronto Wolfpack did not produce one home grown professional RL player nor one canadian dollar from a TV deal to share with SL clubs here - that would be about 10 cents per club but there wasn't even one dollar. Mate - I think Toronto Arrows may or may not be a success story, but my word they have survived and TWP have died. Whatever the dynamics of "growth" Toronto Wolfpack grew nothing, Toronto Arrows grew a Pro Canadian Rugby club full of Canadians. The more you play down the Arrows and Canadian RU the more you expose the relative failure of Toronto Wolfpack and Canadian Rugby League player development. Believe me I wanted them to grow, but the minute they ejected their canadian/american players the alarm bells rang, It was clear Argylle didn't want to build something, he just wanted to buy something. I can understand that as he's pushing 60 and would probably never see professional Canadian RL players come through.... Perez was particularly annoying when pressed, constantly excusing what he promised . He said it would take some years for quality young Canadian players to come through - kicking his own can down the road. He said the big NATV deal would come once there were "5-6 North American clubs in Superleague". But that was and is impossible as the SKY deal is lost without it being predominately English.....

Re: Toronto Wolfpack may pull out of Superleague : Sat Aug 08, 2020 8:34 pm  

[quote="Donnyman"]
“ Mate - I think Toronto Arrows may or may not be a success story, but my word they have survived and TWP have died.”
- You were the one that put them forward as your example of a success story and evidence that Canada as a Rugby Union country. Now you are changing that statement to suit yourself. They have survived for one year after buying their way into a 2 year old league by buying part of the league.

“ Toronto Arrows grew a pro-Canadian Rugby clubs full of Canadians. ”
- They didn’t grow anything. They have been around 1 season and cherry picked already developed and playing Canadian Rugby Union players. But if you have watched a game (I have) you will see that their top players are imports.

“ Whatever the dynamics of "growth" Toronto Wolfpack grew nothing, ”
- Except a 7883 average crowd in 2019. Those were fans that simply didn’t already exist just 3 years previous. The vast majority being paying season ticket holders and paying game day fans.

“ OK so we agree on the extensive free tickets,”
- no we don’t but don’t let that stop you claiming that I do to suit your post.

“ You need to concede exactly what Toronto Wolfpack were offering the game here.”
- bigger crowds at the majority of their away games played In the UK, therefore boosting gate money for the home clubs (as per a totalRL examination of attendances).

Re: Toronto Wolfpack may pull out of Superleague : Sat Aug 08, 2020 8:43 pm  

Ottawa have signed 9 English players so will the rest be Canadian ? But won’t the Canadians count as overseas so they can only have 7 anyway?

Re: Toronto Wolfpack may pull out of Superleague : Sat Aug 08, 2020 8:57 pm  

djhudds wrote:

Ottawa have signed 9 English players so will the rest be Canadian ? But won’t the Canadians count as overseas so they can only have 7 anyway?

Who knows. Bottom line, as I have clearly stated (but ignored by Donny), I’d do not believe TWP should be in SL and I am sceptical that Ottawa can bring anything much to the English game. They will however continue to grow the interest in RL in Canada and grow the grass roots game if it is done right (not SL or nothing in 3 years).
Canadian Rugby League teams are an expansion of the game, but their part in UK Rugby is not for me. Just my opinion that I am happy to have people debate with me.

Re: Toronto Wolfpack may pull out of Superleague : Sat Aug 08, 2020 9:00 pm  

wrencat1873 wrote:

Although, it's worth noting that despite very few away fans, most clubs enjoyed their highest attendance of the season when Toronto came to town.

You've completely made that up. Leigh brought Championship clubs much higher attendances than TWP last year..........

Batley v.Leigh 1240 .v.TWP 894
Barrow.v.Leigh 1637 v.TWP 1,417
Bradford.v.Leigh 4381 v.TWP 3,421
Dewsbury.v.Leigh 1668 v TWP 1,251
Fev.v.Leigh 3,104 v.TWP 2,101
Halifax.v.Leigh 2245 v.TWP 2090
Rochdale.v.Leigh 1019 v.TWP 694
Sheffield.v. Leigh 1082 v.TWP 932
Swinton.v.Leigh 2054 vTWP 1281
Widnes.v.Leigh 5886 .v.TWP 3812

Why don't you do the comparison between Bradford and TWP for pulling power? Sure people came out to see what they were about. I went to Halifax to see TWP in 2018 and I didn't see any Canadians.or Americans, just a phoney club. Once people had had a close look they just weren't impressed...

BTW TWP brought Bulls a stinker of a crowd last year.

Re: Toronto Wolfpack may pull out of Superleague : Sat Aug 08, 2020 9:06 pm  

Donnyman wrote:

You've completely made that up. Leigh brought Championship clubs much higher attendances than TWP last year..........

Batley v.Leigh 1240 .v.TWP 894
Barrow.v.Leigh 1637 v.TWP 1,417
Bradford.v.Leigh 4381 v.TWP 3,421
Dewsbury.v.Leigh 1668 v TWP 1,251
Fev.v.Leigh 3,104 v.TWP 2,101
Halifax.v.Leigh 2245 v.TWP 2090
Rochdale.v.Leigh 1019 v.TWP 694
Sheffield.v. Leigh 1082 v.TWP 932
Swinton.v.Leigh 2054 vTWP 1281
Widnes.v.Leigh 5886 .v.TWP 3812

Why don't you do the comparison between Bradford and TWP for pulling power? Sure people came out to see what they were about. I went to Halifax to see TWP in 2018 and I didn't see any Canadians.or Americans, just a phoney club. Once people had had a close look they just weren't impressed...

BTW TWP brought Bulls a stinker of a crowd last year.

Now this we can agree on. Leigh should be in SL because they bring in bigger crowds.
(But didn’t you just say crowd numbers don’t prove anything).
No, I’m sure you are right. Leigh for SL. Donny knows

Re: Toronto Wolfpack may pull out of Superleague : Sat Aug 08, 2020 9:08 pm  

[quote="Vancouver Leyther"]

Now this we can agree on. Leigh should be in SL because they bring in bigger crowds.
(But didn’t you just say crowd numbers don’t prove anything).
No, I’m sure you are right. Leigh for SL. Donny knows
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I never said that, so your down to making stuff up as well.