[Sadfish]

Re: Stadium Developments : Wed Dec 21, 2011 2:20 pm  

vastman wrote:

No you do not own the house until you pay the last installment - that is wht the Bank/BS have the deeds to your house.

What Saints fans are doing is confusing the club/heritage/fan base with the Ltd company that owns and runs it - they are simply not the same.

Now I have no reason to think that the Saints Directors are not honourable men so any scenario where they would somehow screw the club are remote. However to suggest that there is something special about Saints situation compared to other is a complete load rubbish. Until the debt is payed there is always a risk.

It all depends whether the loans where set against the stadium or whether they were debentures to the ltd company.

If a company owns something say a stadium and say that is worth £20 million and they fail to pay someone who say they owe £3million to, it's still the companies stadium, you can't get the whole stadium off the ltd company just because some of the loan isn't repaid, they will just adjust the payment returns through the next few years as they need to or convert the loan to shares if possible as part of the ownership of the club.

The Stadium is still 100% owned by the St Helens RFC ltd afaik wherein that company is owned by shareholders to whatever amount of shares they own, regardless of their debentures, directors loans, club debts.

Lets face it you don't put money into any sports club that you can't lose, these people know that the chances of getting their money back in full, whilst absolutely possible, is also highly likely to be low, or longer than expected.

Re: Stadium Developments : Wed Dec 21, 2011 3:11 pm  

vastman wrote:

No you do not own the house until you pay the last installment - that is wht the Bank/BS have the deeds to your house.

The bank have the deeds because they have a loan secured on the property, not because they own the property. The person whose name is on those deeds owns the property.

The Bank's balance sheet will show the loan as an asset, not the property, because it doesn't own the property.

It is not like HP where title to the asset only passes when the last payment is made, title passes to the homeowner when he comples the purchase of the house. The fact that he owes money to a mortgage company doesn't alter that.

Re: Stadium Developments : Wed Dec 21, 2011 3:35 pm  

vastman wrote: So if what you say is correct Saints Directors own the stadium rather than say a trust. So what happens if they leave? Saints (the fans & club) do not own the stadium, a consortium of directors do. It's a pretty big distinction is it not. I reckon you are being very naive. Can you point me somewhere that shows how the stadium was funded please before I make my mind up - thanks. To be honest I dont care if you make your mind up or not this is the press release about the extra 6 million loans http://www.saintsrlfc.com/news/page/1340 the simple fact is that the stadium is owned by the club , not a stadium company , you may call me naive but i think if someone else owned the club SOMEBODY would notice !!

vastman wrote: So if what you say is correct Saints Directors own the stadium rather than say a trust. So what happens if they leave? Saints (the fans & club) do not own the stadium, a consortium of directors do. It's a pretty big distinction is it not. I reckon you are being very naive. Can you point me somewhere that shows how the stadium was funded please before I make my mind up - thanks. To be honest I dont care if you make your mind up or not this is the press release about the extra 6 million loans http://www.saintsrlfc.com/news/page/1340 the simple fact is that the stadium is owned by the club , not a stadium company , you may call me naive but i think if someone else owned the club SOMEBODY would notice !!

Re: Stadium Developments : Wed Dec 21, 2011 5:22 pm  

Well done saints and all those other clubs in new stadia. Something good came out of licensing! Great for the sport! Some clubs should be a bit red faced?

Re: Stadium Developments : Wed Dec 21, 2011 9:08 pm  

knockersbumpMKII wrote:

No they don't.

Yes they do.

knockersbumpMKII wrote:

You don't own a house that you 'buy' (with someone elses money) until your debt to the lender is paid off. A mortgage is another form of managed debt. You don't own outright anything until that debt is paid off no matter what it is. It can't be any simpler.

Yes you do. The money has been lent to you and secured on the house. No one controls or owns that house other than you. The only way the lender could do anything whatsoever with that house is if you did keep up repayments.

vastman wrote:

No you do not own the house until you pay the last installment - that is wht the Bank/BS have the deeds to your house.

Utter rubbish. As FeartheVee says, the buyer owns the house as the deeds to the house state. Not the lender. Otherwise someone better inform the Land Registry and the DVLA to change the name on who owns my house and car.

vastman wrote:

What Saints fans are doing is confusing the club/heritage/fan base with the Ltd company that owns and runs it - they are simply not the same.

Now I have no reason to think that the Saints Directors are not honourable men so any scenario where they would somehow screw the club are remote. However to suggest that there is something special about Saints situation compared to other is a complete load rubbish. Until the debt is payed there is always a risk.

You appear very defensive for some reason. I suggest you stop with the bizarre paranoia that everyone is against Wakefield and just accept the fact that people are praising Saints for something.
Plus as mentioned by others, Saints own the stadium.

Re: Stadium Developments : Wed Dec 21, 2011 10:33 pm  

Okay, just so you dont continue to make more errors in thinking.
To own something outright, or "free and clear," is to own it without any liens or other debts attached to it, like owning a car or a house for which the loan has been paid off - to have "clear title"

If you state that the ground etc is wholly owned there would be no debt to pay off to anyone, Macmanus has also stated that he intends to borrow more against the value of the stadium "We intend to refinance further in the medium term by way of conversion of the existing convertible facility into new shares and/or a further private placement of new shares"

So how can you come to the conclusion you own it outright now or in the future until ALL the debts are paid?
However you look at it you do not own the stadium etc outright.

Re: Stadium Developments : Wed Dec 21, 2011 10:41 pm  

knockersbumpMKII wrote:

Okay, just so you dont continue to make more errors in thinking.
To own something outright, or "free and clear," is to own it without any liens or other debts attached to it, like owning a car or a house for which the loan has been paid off - to have "clear title"

If you state that the ground etc is wholly owned there would be no debt to pay off to anyone, Macmanus has also stated that he intends to borrow more against the value of the stadium "We intend to refinance further in the medium term by way of conversion of the existing convertible facility into new shares and/or a further private placement of new shares"

So how can you come to the conclusion you own it outright now or in the future until ALL the debts are paid?
However you look at it you do not own the stadium etc outright.

Whatever the financial structure , it will be better than paying rent

Re: Stadium Developments : Wed Dec 21, 2011 10:45 pm  

So why do the deeds to my house and the Land Registry say I own my house?
My does the DVLA say I own my car?

I never suggested I owned the stadium, if I did own it i'd be making Saints play out of the car park, they can sod off out of my nice new stadium.
Whatever bizarre spin you want to put on it, St Helen's own the stadium. As explained to you before, whatever money is owed to anyone is irrelevant so long as they keep up repayments. That stadium is Saints to do with as they wish, if they want to have 15 pop concerts on it during the week they can do, if they want to rip up the pitch they can do, if they want to use it as a home for Johnny Vegas they can do.
Whoever they owe money to does not own that stadium.

Re: Stadium Developments : Wed Dec 21, 2011 10:50 pm  

Him wrote:

So why do the deeds to my house and the Land Registry say I own my house?
My does the DVLA say I own my car?

I never suggested I owned the stadium, if I did own it i'd be making Saints play out of the car park, they can sod off out of my nice new stadium.
Whatever bizarre spin you want to put on it, St Helen's own the stadium. As explained to you before, whatever money is owed to anyone is irrelevant so long as they keep up repayments. That stadium is Saints to do with as they wish, if they want to have 15 pop concerts on it during the week they can do, if they want to rip up the pitch they can do, if they want to use it as a home for Johnny Vegas they can do.
Whoever they owe money to does not own that stadium.

That is not strictly true... if they wanted to use it as a home for Johnny Vegas they would need change of use planning permission!

Re: Stadium Developments : Wed Dec 21, 2011 11:53 pm  

I stand corrected Mr Armadillo.

Though they could put railings round him and claim he's a visitor attraction.