Re: Widnes & Relegation : Tue Jul 02, 2019 10:09 am  

How about lets stick with what we have for a couple of seasons

Apart from the missed opportunity of not including Toronto and Toulouse in the last format change, surely, we should stick with the system that we have.
Of course, it's bloody uncomfortable for those under threat and nobody wants their team to go down but, at least with the current format, there is always the opportunity to re gain promotion.
If we go to any kind of franchise / license system, we will still exclude the rest of the Championship clubs and make it difficult to add "expansion" sides to the comp.
The key to what may be possible in the future is likely to be massively affected by the next TV deal and who knows what that may bring.

Re: Widnes & Relegation : Tue Jul 02, 2019 11:05 am  

I really hope Toulouse come up sooner rather then later, hopefully if Toronto bottle it again Toulouse will be waiting. Be better for the game as a whole to have another French team in the top league.

Re: Widnes & Relegation : Tue Jul 02, 2019 1:14 pm  

I would repeat my annual, or perennial, question - to which I have never read anything from RFL or SL that remotely addresses it - Where are we going with this?

On current rumours and possibilities you could in a couple of years end up with a SL including
1. Toronto
2. Canada 2
3. New York
4. Catalans
5. Toulouse
6. Barcelona

I will ignore the "no away fans" argument, but that leaves the colossal expense of half the clubs having to jet half a plane of people to and fro every week.

But back to the plot. Where are we going with this? Are we actually looking to build and cement a World Super League? Like a RL version of the Champions League?

Or is the aim (as I thought it was with Catalans, though it was never said) to use the foreign club as a standard bearer to promote RL on their home patch, with a view to the foreign team eventually retiring into a newly vibrant own domestic league?

Or is there, as it has always seemed to me, in fact no real overarching plan whatsoever and never has been, and we just get random applications from moneyed enthusiasts and for as long as they can inject the cahs, we are happy to accommodate them permanently?

Compared to soccer, RL is skint. One leading player's Premier League wages could probably pay the entire RL weekly wage bill. Yet no country allows foreign teams into any of the premier (or indeed any) divisions. If it is such a great idea, then why not? For example, "promote" Man City to La Liga?

I just don't see that the present arrangement of foreign clubs being allowed to come in and stay in seemingly on a permanent basis is healthy for the domestic game. As at today, if you added 5 foreign teams to SL then Wakefield, Leeds, Huddersfield, Hull KR and London would find themselves in the Championship to keep Bradford and Leigh company.

How long would all those "SL level" clubs manage to stay at anything like their present operations, given that at best, only one of them could be promoted each season - and that might be at the expense of another English team anyway.

Re: Widnes & Relegation : Tue Jul 02, 2019 1:42 pm  

Call Me God wrote:

I'd have the current 12 toronto and toulouse..... Possibly 2 more from the championship...... Beaumont would bankroll leigh with the assurance of top flight survival..... Widnes were successful under licencing.
The NRL, AFL, NFL, NHL, NBL...... All successful without P&R.... Weve had 100 years of jeapordy and were still tiny.........we need a top tier with strong teams and a minimum spend on marketing...... If peoe see full stadiums they want to be part of it....

So your plan isn't actually for 14-16 viable clubs, but merely a bit of deck chair shuffling!

Re: Widnes & Relegation : Tue Jul 02, 2019 1:53 pm  

Ferocious Aardvark wrote:

I would repeat my annual, or perennial, question - to which I have never read anything from RFL or SL that remotely addresses it - Where are we going with this?

On current rumours and possibilities you could in a couple of years end up with a SL including
1. Toronto
2. Canada 2
3. New York
4. Catalans
5. Toulouse
6. Barcelona

I will ignore the "no away fans" argument, but that leaves the colossal expense of half the clubs having to jet half a plane of people to and fro every week.

But back to the plot. Where are we going with this? Are we actually looking to build and cement a World Super League? Like a RL version of the Champions League?

Or is the aim (as I thought it was with Catalans, though it was never said) to use the foreign club as a standard bearer to promote RL on their home patch, with a view to the foreign team eventually retiring into a newly vibrant own domestic league?

Or is there, as it has always seemed to me, in fact no real overarching plan whatsoever and never has been, and we just get random applications from moneyed enthusiasts and for as long as they can inject the cahs, we are happy to accommodate them permanently?

Compared to soccer, RL is skint. One leading player's Premier League wages could probably pay the entire RL weekly wage bill. Yet no country allows foreign teams into any of the premier (or indeed any) divisions. If it is such a great idea, then why not? For example, "promote" Man City to La Liga?

I just don't see that the present arrangement of foreign clubs being allowed to come in and stay in seemingly on a permanent basis is healthy for the domestic game. As at today, if you added 5 foreign teams to SL then Wakefield, Leeds, Huddersfield, Hull KR and London would find themselves in the Championship to keep Bradford and Leigh company.

How long would all those "SL level" clubs manage to stay at anything like their present operations, given that at best, only one of them could be promoted each season - and that might be at the expense of another English team anyway.

^^This^^

Re: Widnes & Relegation : Tue Jul 02, 2019 1:53 pm  

Ferocious Aardvark wrote:

I would repeat my annual, or perennial, question - to which I have never read anything from RFL or SL that remotely addresses it - Where are we going with this?

On current rumours and possibilities you could in a couple of years end up with a SL including
1. Toronto
2. Canada 2
3. New York
4. Catalans
5. Toulouse
6. Barcelona

I will ignore the "no away fans" argument, but that leaves the colossal expense of half the clubs having to jet half a plane of people to and fro every week.

But back to the plot. Where are we going with this? Are we actually looking to build and cement a World Super League? Like a RL version of the Champions League?

Or is the aim (as I thought it was with Catalans, though it was never said) to use the foreign club as a standard bearer to promote RL on their home patch, with a view to the foreign team eventually retiring into a newly vibrant own domestic league?

Or is there, as it has always seemed to me, in fact no real overarching plan whatsoever and never has been, and we just get random applications from moneyed enthusiasts and for as long as they can inject the cahs, we are happy to accommodate them permanently?

Compared to soccer, RL is skint. One leading player's Premier League wages could probably pay the entire RL weekly wage bill. Yet no country allows foreign teams into any of the premier (or indeed any) divisions. If it is such a great idea, then why not? For example, "promote" Man City to La Liga?

I just don't see that the present arrangement of foreign clubs being allowed to come in and stay in seemingly on a permanent basis is healthy for the domestic game. As at today, if you added 5 foreign teams to SL then Wakefield, Leeds, Huddersfield, Hull KR and London would find themselves in the Championship to keep Bradford and Leigh company.

How long would all those "SL level" clubs manage to stay at anything like their present operations, given that at best, only one of them could be promoted each season - and that might be at the expense of another English team anyway.

^^This^^

Re: Widnes & Relegation : Tue Jul 02, 2019 2:19 pm  

Ferocious Aardvark wrote:

Yet no country allows foreign teams into any of the premier (or indeed any) divisions. If it is such a great idea, then why not? For example, "promote" Man City to La Liga?

Cardiff/Swansea in the Premiership?
Derry City in Ireland?
Monaco in France?
Vaduz in Switzerland?
Toronto/Vancouver/Montreal in MLS?

[Mild Rover]

Re: Widnes & Relegation : Tue Jul 02, 2019 5:21 pm  

Ferocious Aardvark wrote:

<snip>

I don’t think there is an overarching master plan beyond trying to exploit opportunities that emerge and seeing how it evolves.

I doubt the New Zealand Warriors will be playing in a NZ-only competition any time soon. In fairness they’re a good bit closer to Sydney than a potential domestic expansion team in Perth.

Re: Widnes & Relegation : Tue Jul 02, 2019 6:23 pm  

CM Punk wrote:

Cardiff/Swansea in the Premiership?
Derry City in Ireland?
Monaco in France?
Vaduz in Switzerland?
Toronto/Vancouver/Montreal in MLS?

Let's not forget American ice hockey leagues.

On the general question I don't think there is a strategy.

With only 2 main countries involved in RL, England and Australia it falls to them to grow the game outside of their hinterland as there is no one else.

Now you could take the approach of anyone outside of our hinterland is not our concern, however that would be strategically short sighted.

Look at other sports and they are not content to stay in their traditional local markets because they see the bigger long term prize means participation internationally to generate significant income.

Rugby Union expanded beyond its boarders decades ago with bringing more teams into what is now the 6 nations. Originally it was just a UK based competition then brought in France and Italy. It is now looking to expand further without any concern about whether RU has a tradition in those countries.

The super 12 has already proven the case for cross boarder domestic leagues.

Even the most cash rich leagues in the world in the NFL are not complacent taking several games to Wembley.

Look at football in the off-season, there is no off-season, they take domestic games on tour in the far east to grow their market share.

In wider sports entertainment, WWE do shows in the UK, Japan, Saudi etcetc.

We could say screw the financial opportunities in France and Canada and Wales. But will Saints, Wigan, Batley, Featherstone, Hull ever expand our market to drive more finance into the game?

Re: Widnes & Relegation : Tue Jul 02, 2019 7:49 pm  

A very good 5Live podcast with Shane Richardson (Gateshead/Souths) and Mark Evans (Melbourne Storm/ Harlequins RUFC - Closely aligned with Harlequins RL). They discuss expansionism within SL and licensing. https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p07f1k8m It also discusses why SL needs to be run by non club chairmen. The discussion is very interesting including why Toronto will not work and it would be better for Toulouse to be promoted, why we should be concentrating on strengthening the M62 corridor clubs and why Bradford should be given a license for SL. They also mention the fact that most NRL teams are also losing money and are supported by their fruit machine business.

A very good 5Live podcast with Shane Richardson (Gateshead/Souths) and Mark Evans (Melbourne Storm/ Harlequins RUFC - Closely aligned with Harlequins RL). They discuss expansionism within SL and licensing. https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p07f1k8m It also discusses why SL needs to be run by non club chairmen. The discussion is very interesting including why Toronto will not work and it would be better for Toulouse to be promoted, why we should be concentrating on strengthening the M62 corridor clubs and why Bradford should be given a license for SL. They also mention the fact that most NRL teams are also losing money and are supported by their fruit machine business.