Re: England team to take on the Exiles? : Wed May 18, 2011 10:21 pm  

Ronnie Neale wrote:

Farrell or Harrison could easily be as good as sinfield.

I doubt mossop will play in the exiles game ahead of morley, maybe mcarthy scarsbrook could play there or maybe one of the younger burgess'?

I think we will see both Farrell and Harrison as 2nd rowers.

Im not sure of the wisdom of throwing in young Burgess, he has done nothing as of yet, other than be young and a Burgess.

Re: England team to take on the Exiles? : Wed May 18, 2011 11:46 pm  

Re Brough vs Long, I think it's important that we have a scrum half who plays with structure. That for me was Long's main problem for GB (and he wasn't alone by any means) - great at unstructured plays and the odd planned move but not in just consistently working through sets of 6 to a plan. The idea (still spouted by some of our older 'experts') that some kind of British style of play involving off-the-cuff and inspired moments at the expense of organisation will somehow beat a well-drilled team with any regularity surely has no credibility. What we desperately need is a scrum half who focuses on organising forwards and setting up plays for the 6. If Brough can do that consistently there is no reason why he can't be seen as 'better' than Long at international level.

Watching GB/England in recent years against Australia has far too often being like watching a bunch of park players trying to throw the ball around against a physically superior team with class players. The lack of structure we show (and other basic issues like poor ball security, dreadful kicking games, lack of quality athletes in the backs and complete inability to defend against a structured attack) has made us look worse than we are.

Re: England team to take on the Exiles? : Thu May 19, 2011 12:43 am  

BrisbaneRhino wrote:

Re Brough vs Long, I think it's important that we have a scrum half who plays with structure. That for me was Long's main problem for GB (and he wasn't alone by any means) - great at unstructured plays and the odd planned move but not in just consistently working through sets of 6 to a plan. The idea (still spouted by some of our older 'experts') that some kind of British style of play involving off-the-cuff and inspired moments at the expense of organisation will somehow beat a well-drilled team with any regularity surely has no credibility. What we desperately need is a scrum half who focuses on organising forwards and setting up plays for the 6. If Brough can do that consistently there is no reason why he can't be seen as 'better' than Long at international level.

Watching GB/England in recent years against Australia has far too often being like watching a bunch of park players trying to throw the ball around against a physically superior team with class players. The lack of structure we show (and other basic issues like poor ball security, dreadful kicking games, lack of quality athletes in the backs and complete inability to defend against a structured attack) has made us look worse than we are.

Agree completely we need to play with a simple game plan especially to start with. Complete sets, good kicking game and build pressure. We also need to improve defensive and with that like you say physically as we get bullied in the backs far too often.

Maybe we should go with Brough at 7 and Sinfield at 6, that should ensure theres the organisation plus a good kicking game and S.Tomkins at 1 can implement the speed and running game of a 6 from fullback. The only thing is were that leaves Widdop but that will only be an issue if he plays well throughout this season or could play him from the bench. Maybe in the summer look at a team something like ...

S.Tomkins
Lawrence
Cudjoe
J.Tomkins
Briscoe
Sinfield
Brough
Graham
Roby
Morley
Burgess
Ellis
O'Loughlin
-----------
Widdop
Peacock
Crabtree
Westwood

Reserves... Robinson, Lomax, McGillvary, Shenton, Watkins, Farrell, Harrison, Wood, Patrick, Mossop etc.

Re: England team to take on the Exiles? : Thu May 19, 2011 12:47 am  

Welham and Yeaman are both top try scorers this season. Shenton has defensive capabilities better than most other SL centres but his stats may be flattering due to the amount of work he is having to put in to look after his younger team mates at the moment? What I do not understand is why Bridge is getting in so many peoples teams? He doesn't have as much flair as those at Huddersfield, he is nowhere near the top of the try scoring charts even though he is in a free scoring team right now and his defensive work is nothing compared to Shentons.

Also as someone said we can't go playing players in new positions for their country to those that they are used to playing this season for their clubs like putting Briscoe at centre when he has been playing brilliantly on the wing. Yeaman and Welham are hard to really choose between but overall you would have to say Yeamans defence and partnership with Briscoe could swing it but then Welhams age might be what appeals to SM.

If we are to use this game as a warm up to the 4N then we can't go in to it picking players that are deffinately not going to be involved at the end of the year. If he has no intention of taking someone like Welham because he wants more experience and a defensive back line then don't go picking him for this game, the game is being played so we can be more competative at the end of the year and learn how to play together. Consistancy is the key IMO.

Re: England team to take on the Exiles? : Thu May 19, 2011 12:50 am  

Leroy Cudjoe has scored 1 try in 13 games. Might as well go the whole hog and play Fox on his wing!!

Re: England team to take on the Exiles? : Thu May 19, 2011 7:15 am  

some people are debating whether or not Sinfield should be in the team.

A guy who is IMO one of, if not the best loose forward in SL due to his kicking ability. He can also fit in at 6 (which he has been doing an outstanding job for in place of Mcguire) he also can fill in at hooker.

some people are picking o'loughlin over sinfield? that seems crazy to me, as having sinfield playing (90 mins) is like having an extra stand off and hooker on the bench. and the bench can then be 4 forwards.

Re: England team to take on the Exiles? : Thu May 19, 2011 7:23 am  

thaiad24 wrote:

some people are debating whether or not Sinfield should be in the team.

A guy who is IMO one of, if not the best loose forward in SL due to his kicking ability. He can also fit in at 6 (which he has been doing an outstanding job for in place of Mcguire) he also can fill in at hooker.

some people are picking o'loughlin over sinfield? that seems crazy to me, as having sinfield playing (90 mins) is like having an extra stand off and hooker on the bench. and the bench can then be 4 forwards.

The problem with Sinfield (in some people's reasoning) is that he's an inbetween, a jack of all trades. There are better forward orientated players, among them Lockers, and yet he's not a player people consider to have the ability to be an all out half back.

In club rugby, I think you can get away with it, having a guy like this at 13, but when you're up against the Kiwi or Aussie pack, watering down the physicality of the forwards is a poor move.

I have a lot of respect for Sinfield, mainly because I think his on field execution of game plan beat my side for 3 GFs on the trot, but I think if he's playing for us, it should be in one of the half backs shirt.

Re: England team to take on the Exiles? : Thu May 19, 2011 8:07 am  

I don't think it does particularly water down the forwards having Sinfield at 13 since his defence is good. The problem has been that Sinfield has been picked at 13 at international level whilst not playing the same role as he does at Leeds and being expected to be an extra second rower. If we're going to have Sinfield at 13 we have to make sure he's playing the same role as he does at Leeds otherwise he should be at 6 or not in the squad.

If we want a workhorse 13 rather than a ball playing 13 then look no further than O'Loughlin. If we want a ball playing 13 then it's Sinfield.

[Durham Giant]

Re: England team to take on the Exiles? : Thu May 19, 2011 8:20 am  

Him wrote:

I don't think it does particularly water down the forwards having Sinfield at 13 since his defence is good. The problem has been that Sinfield has been picked at 13 at international level whilst not playing the same role as he does at Leeds and being expected to be an extra second rower. If we're going to have Sinfield at 13 we have to make sure he's playing the same role as he does at Leeds otherwise he should be at 6 or not in the squad.

If we want a workhorse 13 rather than a ball playing 13 then look no further than O'Loughlin. If we want a ball playing 13 then it's Sinfield.

This post sums up some of the problems that England / GB have had over the years.

There is not point picking a team of the best players in their positions and then the coach telling them to play in a different way to what they are used to or in a way that is not based on their strengths.


The coach has to decide the system he wants to play , how he wants players to play and THEN pick the players who can do the job he wants.

Last year Kevin Brown played poorly because his way of playing in a tight structured, organised team was very different to the role that McBanana wanted him to play, so it exacerbated his weaknesses and none of his strengths.

The same was true of Crabtree who was told play it tight and do not offload. What is the point of having a prop whose strength is offloading the ball and then telling him not to do it.


There is no point picking Sinfield and then saying to him, your job is to tackle non stop and bring the ball up strongly.

Both o'Loughlin and Sinfield could be first choice LFs depending on what job the coach wants them to do and how to play.

What i think would be wrong would be picking him for his versatility at hooker etc as that is such a pivotal position and there are 3 players in the squads who are far better at hooker than him.

Re: England team to take on the Exiles? : Thu May 19, 2011 9:32 am  

Spot on Durham. Too often we've picked good players but played them either out of position or doing a different job to which they're used to. Richard Horne on the wing being an obvious example. As we've seen when some Aussies come to SL, they're not supermen (apart from Brent Webb obviously) who are so monumentally better than our lads that we don't ever stand a chance. They have a better setup, a better mentality thanks to Origin and a more competitive comp, plus a couple of freaks in Inglis & Lockyer. If we get ourselves sorted off the field and really give em a battering in the first 10 mins we've got a chance.