Re: Lying in the ruck = penalty : Mon Mar 18, 2019 4:32 pm  

Captain Hook wrote:

The ptb is a horror show at present. Defenders lying on, players flopping onto tackled players (why isn't that penalised anymore?). Attackers moving off the mark, trapping defenders with their arms. Ball stealing v loose carries. Its a bit like RU scrums in the sense that who gets penalised is a lottery.

Flops stopped getting penalised a few years back, certainly something i noticed. not sure why. It's just not penalised unless its 10 minutes late. Every single player moves off the mark now. To me, if you step over a player, you're moving off the mark, and thats a penalty, but what do i know.

Re: Lying in the ruck = penalty : Mon Mar 18, 2019 4:41 pm  

Chris71 wrote:

In the Hull V Wakefield game Brough knew exactly what he was doing and deliberately stood over Minichello (to trap him) as he was in the process of rolling away from the tackled player, who then stood up and played the ball and Brough then let it hit Minichello and waved his arms for the penalty and was rewarded for his gamesmanship which is pretty much cheating for a penalty.

Another poor decision in the same game was Taylor being penalised for having a Wakefield player who he had tackled laid on top of him writhing around to gain a penalty when all he had to do was stand up as Taylor was clearly no holding him down but was unable to clear the area as the Wakefield player was laid on top making no attempt to get up. Similarly Jacob Miller running directly at a static Hull defender and throwing himself dramatically to the floor to yet again gain a penalty by conning the ref.

My mistake - it seems that only Wakefield are guilty of this offence - and only when they beat Hull...

Re: Lying in the ruck = penalty : Mon Mar 18, 2019 4:45 pm  

bren2k wrote:

My mistake - it seems that only Wakefield are guilty of this offence - and only when they beat Hull...

are you seriously saying Wakey didn't cheat?

The better team won, 2 points, they wont be extending the trop... hang on,Wakey haven't won anything in 30 years.

Re: Lying in the ruck = penalty : Mon Mar 18, 2019 4:49 pm  

Me - a couple of posts ago wrote:

of the matches I saw at the weekend, I'd say that more than half the penalties awarded for that offence were unnecessary and involved some form of cheating by the attacking player; it's not a good look for the game.

MGarbutt1986 wrote:

are you seriously saying Wakey didn't cheat?

Clearly not.

[Chris71]

Re: Lying in the ruck = penalty : Mon Mar 18, 2019 4:55 pm  

bren2k wrote:

Chris71 wrote:

In the Hull V Wakefield game Brough knew exactly what he was doing and deliberately stood over Minichello (to trap him) as he was in the process of rolling away from the tackled player, who then stood up and played the ball and Brough then let it hit Minichello and waved his arms for the penalty and was rewarded for his gamesmanship which is pretty much cheating for a penalty.

Another poor decision in the same game was Taylor being penalised for having a Wakefield player who he had tackled laid on top of him writhing around to gain a penalty when all he had to do was stand up as Taylor was clearly no holding him down but was unable to clear the area as the Wakefield player was laid on top making no attempt to get up. Similarly Jacob Miller running directly at a static Hull defender and throwing himself dramatically to the floor to yet again gain a penalty by conning the ref.

My mistake - it seems that only Wakefield are guilty of this offence - and only when they beat Hull...

Whats your issue? Its got nothing to do with only Wakefield doing only when they Hull but they were 3 glaring incidents in that game whether Hull won or lost is not the reason for me pointing these out. Same as I openly criticised Danny Houghton last season when he intentionally threw a pass knowing it would hit the opponent to get a penalty. Same way if I see a Hull player do the same I would be critical because its becoming an issue in the game and needs eradicating.

For your information Hull were beaten by Wakefield as they were the better of the two on the night if that makes you feel better.

The fact is its becoming an issue and I didnt mention that I never thought I'd see the day RL players asking a ref to give an opponent a yellow card like Fafita & co did it thats game but hey my mistake we got beat so can't have an opinion obviously.

Re: Lying in the ruck = penalty : Mon Mar 18, 2019 5:02 pm  

Chris71 wrote:

Whats your issue? Its got nothing to do with only Wakefield doing only when they Hull but they were 3 glaring incidents in that game whether Hull won or lost is not the reason for me pointing these out. Same as I openly criticised Danny Houghton last season when he intentionally threw a pass knowing it would hit the opponent to get a penalty. Same way if I see a Hull player do the same I would be critical because its becoming an issue in the game and needs eradicating.

For your information Hull were beaten by Wakefield as they were the better of the two on the night if that makes you feel better.

The fact is its becoming an issue and I didnt mention that I never thought I'd see the day RL players asking a ref to give an opponent a yellow card like Fafita & co did it thats game but hey my mistake we got beat so can't have an opinion obviously.

Save your breath Chris. You should know by now that they're always the victims.

Re: Lying in the ruck = penalty : Mon Mar 18, 2019 8:00 pm  

Chris71 wrote:

Whats your issue? Its got nothing to do with only Wakefield doing only when they Hull but they were 3 glaring incidents in that game whether Hull won or lost is not the reason for me pointing these out. Same as I openly criticised Danny Houghton last season when he intentionally threw a pass knowing it would hit the opponent to get a penalty. Same way if I see a Hull player do the same I would be critical because its becoming an issue in the game and needs eradicating.

Trouble is you don't say anything about Houghton from the Wakey game, or in fact anyone from the Hull side.
I absolutely agree with you, the ruck and pob is garbage atm, I'm turning half the sky games off before half time this season its that 5h1te.
I don't think the Wakey/Hull game was particularly bad in that respect, I mean neither side where angels but, hell, have a watch of any Wigan/Wire/Catalans game, because I can't, its abysmal.
Hull did their bit as do all teams, both Hull and Wakey are no worse than anybody else, and quite a bit better than some, mebbe that's why they're 3 from 6.

Re: Lying in the ruck = penalty : Mon Mar 18, 2019 10:06 pm  

A couple of years ago, it was just a handful of players. The first time I really recall seeing it was McIlorum throwing the ball at a prone tackler to win a penalty in the 2015 Grand Final.

Gradually, it's started spiralling. It culminated I believe last year, when Josh Jones threw the ball forward into a prone marker to win a penalty. This led to a directive from the RFL that such play would be penalised. This has now been forgotten seemingly.

One big problem we have is that we cannot accept that this is now something that happens with all teams. When our team is accused, we leap to their defence. This thread is a case in point. St Helens and Wakefield have been called out on this thread and before long fans leap to their defence.

I didn't see the Wakefield game, so I can't comment. I'm a Saints fan. Dom Peyroux deliberately stepped over the marker and threw the ball onto a marker to win a penalty on Thursday. We benefited by receiving a penalty, but I didn't like seeing it at all.

To get around this problem, we need to accept that this isn't just a couple of players. We shouldn't be blinkered enough to think that our team is above it.

It's systemic. Until we accept that, the problem won't be solved.

Re: Lying in the ruck = penalty : Tue Mar 19, 2019 8:55 am  

I would like to see the refs judge it and make a call in a different way. If the attacker dominates in the tackle the ref calls dominate the player is rewarded and can step forward and play the ball forward of the grounded tackler, if the tackler is still in the way then naturally a penalty.
The other is if the attacker is dominated in the tackle the ref calls surrender then the player concedes and has to step back and play behind the grounded tackler.

If the ref calls dominate because the attacker has got momentum just before the floppers join the affray, then the judgement of the defenders would be at a greater risk of conceded a penalty once the ref has made that call in a similar way to the "held call".

Re: Lying in the ruck = penalty : Tue Mar 19, 2019 9:05 am  

SRV wrote:

One big problem we have is that we cannot accept that this is now something that happens with all teams. When our team is accused, we leap to their defence. This thread is a case in point. St Helens and Wakefield have been called out on this thread and before long fans leap to their defence

I absolutely did not leap to Trinity's defence; I have said repeatedly on many threads about the wild west that the ruck has become, that *all* coaches and lots of players are guilty of exploiting the ever-changing interpretation of the rules to great effect - such that plenty of games become almost unwatchable to anyone who enjoys the game played properly, and incomprehensible to a casual viewer.

For clarity - I'd penalise Danny Brough as readily as I'd penalise anyone else who uses the grubby tactic of drawing a penalty by deliberately throwing the ball at a defender who isn't impeding him; equally, I'd penalise any player who deliberately impedes the ptb.

In short, apply the rules as written to *all* situations in *all* games, and the problem fairly quickly disappears; it's simple economics - if the cost outweighs the potential benefits, behaviour will change.